Medical school applications and CC conventional wisdom

There are bits of information on CC that have become the equivalent of conventional wisdom, even if they aren’t correct, especially concerning medical school applications.

Truism #1: Medical schools don’t care where you attend UG.
This is not correct; some medical schools do care-Jefferson Medical in Philadelphia, for example(Jeff gets the 8th most applicants) Its #1 listed selection factor: college attended.
https://www.jefferson.edu/university/skmc/admissions/selection-factors.html

Truism #2: research doesn’t matter to medical schools for admission. This is also incorrect. For example, both UCLA and GWU list research as a selection factor in admissions.
https://medschool.ucla.edu/apply-basis-of-selection
https://smhs.gwu.edu/academics/md-program/admissions/faqs

See also the “core competencies” listed by AAMC(the people who handle medical school applications-except for Texas).
https://students-residents.aamc.org/choosing-medical-career/article/how-medical-schools-review-applications/
https://students-residents.aamc.org/applying-medical-school/article/core-competencies/

Truism #3: All medical schools require additional course X. More often than not, this is probably incorrect, too. Again, check each medical school’s website. For example, some require statistics, some don’t.

When in doubt, check the MSAR and the website of the specific medical school. There’s a lot of work required for a successful medical school application, and a lot of it isn’t in the classroom. Each medical school does things a bit differently, and it is in the interest of each applicant to address those differences in his or her application. It’s not a one-size-fits-all process.

Re: Truism #1

Your counter example for Jefferson–you don’t know if the Jefferson list is a ranked list. It doesn’t say and it certainly isn’t clear from the way the information is presented. At best you can say: for Jefferson Medical College–some consideration is given for what undergrad a student attend.

( BTW, This could just mean that Jefferson favors students from the area–which it clearly does since Jeff has a contract with the State of Delaware to provide X seats in its med school for Delaware residents.

BTW, most medical schools, public and private–at least those outside of the top tier-- favor local residents because they are more likely to enroll than students from someplace farther away. Medical schools do consider the likelihood of a student enrolling when issuing interview invitations because they have a large number of applicants, but a comparatively small number of interview slots.This is the reason why Texas applicants often find it difficult to get OOS interviews. Adcomm know from past experience that TX applicants will probably choose a TX school due its Lowe costs.)

Also the context of this question that students typically ask about is it better to go to a Ivy League or a state U.

RE; Trusim #2

Research isn’t the deciding factor for most medical schools. Research is nice to have but isn’t critical for mission-oriented medical schools. (i.e. most state medical schools, plus strongly mission oriented medical schools such as HBCU and Puerto Rican medical schools, as well as religiously oriented med schools.

A survey of adcomms showed that research was ranked as being of “medium importance”

See p. 16 https://www.aamc.org/system/files/c/1/498250-usingmcatdatain2020medstudentselection.pdf

Additionally, the MSQ for entering med students in 2019 only 58.9% of students reported engaging in college laboratory research programs.

See also AMCAS new Anatomy of

RE: Truism #3.

I agree that pre-requistite course varies a great deal among schools with most school migrating towards competency based admissions that eliminates requirements for specific coursework and medical schools do, in some cases, provide for alternative pathways for establishing competency.

See

University of Michigan’s requirements for academic competencies in subject areas: https://students-residents.aamc.org/applying-medical-school/article/core-competencies/

Oakland Beaumont SOM : https://oakland.edu/medicine/admissions/admissions-process-and-requirements/requirements

Duke SOM: https://medschool.duke.edu/education/student-services/office-admissions/admissions-faqs

Keck SOM: https://keck.usc.edu/education/md-program/admissions/information/

UVA: https://med.virginia.edu/admissions/application-process/general-requirements/

Tulane: https://medicine.tulane.edu/admissions/application-process/faqs

Stanford SOM https://med.stanford.edu/md-admissions/how-to-apply/academic-requirements.html

NYU: https://med.nyu.edu/education/md-degree/md-admissions/admissions-requirements

You clearly didn’t bother to actually read what I wrote. Nowhere do I state that school attended or research are absolute factors in every medical school. What I wrote is that they are factors in several medical schools, which is contrary to what is routinely offered here-that those two factors don’t matter at all.

First, I didn’t state that Jefferson’s was a “ranked” list, although it is the first thing listed on their-not your or my-list. On CC, it is routinely stated that medical schools “don’t care” where the student went to UG. This is clearly not correct, as evidenced by the Jefferson list from their official website-not my opinion. So yes, some medical schools care. I didn’t state it was dis positive, but it is patently incorrect to state that it doesn’t matter to any medical school. .

See also the Emory medical webite, which states that it recognizes that some UG are more “academically rigorous” than others.

You then offer several of your opinions which are not supported by anything other than your opinion. If you’ve got objective evidence, please present it, specifically about geography, etc. The list by Jefferson, for example, says nothing about your multiple suppositions.

Second, if you had bothered to read my post, I stated that research is a factor in admissions at some medical schools. It is clear that you don’t agree with this, but offer zero in the way of objective rebuttal. I haven’t bothered to check all, but a quick survey of their websites show that Harvard, Albany, Case Western, and Vanderbilt all mention research as a selection factor. This is, again, contrary to what you and others have written-that research is a non-factor at all non-research medical schools, and that just isn’t correct.

And regarding authority, the official website of a medical school carries much more authority than an anonymous survey. But since you like surveys, check out my cite to AAMC, where it is opined that research is a factor.

The difference is between your opinions-which are plentiful-and what the medical schools indicate on their own websites. And if you’d like, I can list the many, many posts on CC where it is flatly stated that research isn’t a factor at any medical school, and that where you go to college doesn’t matter at all(e.g. earlier today, Baylor v Union: " They[medical schools] don’t care where you went, and they ESPECIALLY don’t care about research opportunities.).

The reality is that where you go to UG and if you did research during UG are factors for some medical schools. Applicants should do their research beforehand to determine which ones.

@oldlaw

Please show me here where someone said research didn’t matter at all. I’ve read that research is not high on the list of considered items for medical school…but I don’t recall reading anywhere that it didn’t matter at all.

Some medical schools give preference to either regional applicants…or in the case you mentioned, students from a particular undergrad. But that doesn’t mean that a Yale undergrad degree will Trump a degree from a state university if all other factors are equal, and the student interviews well. There are factors that get you to the interview, but the student really needs to take it from there.

What I see most here is that one can take the requisite courses to get into medical school at any undergraduate college. The student needs to make sure that the requisite courses are offered…and I’d suggest seeing what advising is available to medical school wannabees.

My kid did undergrad research as an engineering major…not lab research. She was an honors recipient for her research. It was on her medical school applications. No one mentioned it…at all at her interview. But she had plenty of questions on her two year Peace Corps assignment. Oddly, 8 years later in her residency interviews, she was surprised to again be asked about the Peace Corps. No one even mentioned her undergrad school…never mind her research.

I’m not saying that research isn’t a factor. I have never said that. But it’s not a high factor. Is middle to lower in terms of what medical schools say they are looking for in applicants.

It is a given that a 3.0 and 505 MCAT for Harvard student does not still get them into a medical school under normal conditions.

It is a given that that candidate won’t get into a medical school with research either.

Now add 3 years of social service in peace corps, a fulbright scholarship and may be some other big things, suddenly that person now went to Harvard and is a Fulbright scholar who volunteereed in peace corps deserving to be in medical school.

Thumper: post #13 http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/2185220-baylor-university-vs-union-college.html#latest

And
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/2181801-baylor-pre-med-vs-umiami-pre-med.html#latest where it is stated:
(Research is highly over-valued in importance by high school students hoping to go to medical school.)

I can post many, many more but it’s clear we’ll not agree. If a medical school specifically posts that research is a selection factor, then it’s important.

And since you place value on anecdotes(re: nobody cared about my kid’s research), our experience has been the opposite. For three successful recent applicants, all three did very different research, and all three were asked about it during interviews, and all three thought it was a huge factor in getting admitted.

And whether research is a “high” or “medium” or “low” factor-again, if a medical school mentions research specifically on its website as a selection factor, then it’s important in the process-to the point where if you are going to apply to Georgetown-and thousands do annually-you better have some(see below, the language from GU’s website couldn’t be clearer).

According to USNWR, the following medical schools were in the top 10 for number of applicants:

2 UCLA-first allopathic school listed

5 GWU

Both list research as a selection factor, as noted above.

4 was Georgetown: "Research in any academic discipline."

Jefferson is already noted, above.

10 Brown: "The Committee especially values intellectual curiosity, prior experience in research or the clinical realm, a demonstrated commitment to serving others, integrity, and enthusiasm."

So of the top 10 in terms of applicants, FIVE specifically mention “research” as a specific selection factor. To me, that would be a selection factor of significance, and while not at the GPA/MCAT level, nonetheless of high importance.

Texaspg: Since nobody said anything about 3.0/505 from Harvard, that falls under the “create a straw man” category, but completely disagree with “It is a given that that candidate won’t get into a medical school with research either”; this should be re-written as “some medicals schools value research, and a candidate won’t be admitted without it.”

The point: some-not all-medical schools give credit for the college attended. And several, including half of the top medical schools in terms of applicants, place significant value on research.

I would not use post #13 in the thread noted as any indication of CC conventional wisdom…that is a poster that just doesn’t get it. Ever.

The second post you are taking out of context. wayoutwestmom says research can be a good add on, but is overvalued…I take that to mean that students should be getting patient facing experience first, before research…not that research is unimportant. Many students do think research > patient facing experience, which is not the case.

Sorry-but research is not “over-valued” for some medical schools. If a medical school says it’s a selection factor, it’s important. It’s not simply a “good add on.” The language from Georgetown, for example, is unambiguous-research is highly valued . So your statement, “Many students do think research > patient facing experience, which is not the case” is not supported.

https://som.georgetown.edu/admissions/degrees-and-admissions/md/guide/#criteria

The many students think research > patient facing experience is based on my personal experience, which does not make it CC conventional wisdom.

Words on med school admission pages are per se two dimensional…I will continue to listen to those who work/have worked in med school admissions, speak with the AOs regularly, or work with students applying to BS/MD programs and/or Med school to better understand the nuance.

"Words on med school admission pages are per se two dimensional…I will continue to listen to those who work/have worked in med school admissions, speak with the AOs regularly, or work with students applying to BS/MD programs and/or Med school to better understand the nuance.

[/quote]
"

Everything on line is “per se two dimensional”, and it’s the internet, so you can listen to anybody you want, but nobody here is an AO or “speak(s) with AOs regularly”.

The bottom line: applicants can decide if they should follow what’s on the website for each specific medical school, or follow your opinions. It’s up to them to decide which would be more reliable.

"

Everything on line is “per se two dimensional”, and it’s the internet, so you can listen to anybody you want, but nobody here is an AO or “speak(s) with AOs regularly”.

The bottom line: applicants can decide if they should follow what’s on the website for each specific medical school, or follow your opinions. It’s up to them to decide which would be more reliable.

[/quote]

Of course…no one would ever suggest that anyone solely follow advice by anonymous posters on the internet. Pulling out one time quotes from posts and concluding that those represent “CC conventional wisdom” is unfounded…based on your correct assertion that some posts and posters may not be reliable.

My advice to applicants: if you are serious, take the time to check the website for each medical school to which you will be sending an application well before application submission time.
It’s not a one-size-fits-all process

And no, it’s not “unfounded”; CC has consistently under valued research as an integral component of applications at some medical schools.

@oldlaw

Are you a medical school adcom?

There is a huge difference between saying something is “overvalued” than saying it doesn’t count.

And no one disagrees that students should do their due diligence when looking at medical schools to which to apply.

I will offer some observations.

A relative, recently deceased, was president/head of a US medical school. Famous surgeon who taught at a couple of US medical schools & participated in ground breaking transplant surgery. Wrote a leading text on surgery. Lots of research articles published. Based on his background, one might think that medical research would be an important consideration for admission to the US medical school which he headed. It wasn’t. He was fairly adament when he stated that the all that his school cared about was an applicant’s GPA & MCAT score. Absolutely did not care about where one attended undergraduate school. But, this is just one medical school.

Several close friends & other family members who have attended medical school, taught at very prestigious top ranked US med schools, and also have very successful careers including in medical research are a mixed group. Some were heavy into research during their undergrad years, and some were not.

My impression is that the interview is an important factor in medical school admissions. Of course, the important question is what gets an applicant an interview.

FWIW The only close friend who was denied admittance to medical school (twice), was admitted after devoting those two intervening years to research. Went on to practice, then teaching at a very prestigious medical school, and now has a very successful practice in his specialty.

Regardless as to whether or not research leads to an interview for medical school admission, applicants must have very high GPAs & do well on the MCAT.

Medical schools are not “one size fits all” when it comes to admissions. Every medical school has a particular mission and a set of internal policies which guide their selection of students to interview.

Some schools value research highly; others don’t.

Some medical school highly value social activism and require (both formally or informally) a minimum number of community service hours. Others don’t.

Some medical schools have as their mission to train physicians for a particular region or to serve a particular ethnic or religious group. Others have a mission to train the future generation of medical researchers. Still others have a mission to develop the next generation of academic administrators, department chairs, and med school deans.

Yes, some medical school do consider what undergrad you attended, but it never a primary driver in admission decisions. Other factors hold much, much more weight.

Yes, you can start college at a community college and still become a physician. (Let’s just look at how many Surgeon Generals of the US have trod that exact path.) Is it ideal? No. Is is possible? Yes.

Can you attend Podunk Regional College as still go to medical school? Of course, but your journey may be more difficult than if you attend a better known school.

All medical schools considered the “road travelled” in acknowledgment that there are significant social and economic disparities in this country and not everyone comes from a background conducive to academic success. AAMC, through national policy statements, acknowledges that med school has become largely the purview of wealthy students and is attempting to provide a more opportunities to those from lesser economic circumstances.


I know personally about 30-40 young physicians. (My own children, their friends from high school through medical school and residency, the children of my neighbors and my friends, some of my former students.) I've heard their stories and know their accomplishments.  I know several adcoms (both active and retired) personally. I have worked  with physicians who sit on adcomms and who write the exam questions for specialty board exams. I have heard the same thing from ALL of them--students and adcomms alike.  **There is no one path to medical school. **Every individual has to find the path that is best suited for that particular individual. (And, yes, that may or may not include research.)

BTW, my favorite story about undergrad research comes from a parent orientation session at a university known for its pre-med program. During the presentations, after a representative from the biological sciences dept spoke, a parent raised his hand to ask a question. His question, "What opportunities are there for my child to get involved in research as freshman?" The professor responded, "Tell him ask around. We always needs someone to feed the mice at 5 am."

Too often people who are not professional scientists don't understand there are many different levels of "research." Most of involvement in undergrad research does not require the application of critical thought & judgments. (That only comes after years of experience.)  Much of undergrad research involvement is routine busywork. (aka "washing dishes")

During undergrad, students seldom get much past the "washing dishes" stage and become fully involved in the scientific process. Full involvement requires doing a literature review on a topic, developing a project idea, finding funding, refining the idea into a prove-able thesis, designing the test protocol, doing a test run of the protocol to see if actually tests what it purports to test, refining the protocol, doing another test run--rinse, repeat as needed.  Science is a iterative process with many, many failures, false leads and dead ends. In fact, even in a successful project, there are many, many more failures than successes. Failure is a great teacher. 

The following document has a Table 1 under section How do admissions officers use MCAT scores and other application data in the holistic review
of applicants’ qualifications?
https://www.aamc.org/system/files/c/1/498250-usingmcatdatain2020medstudentselection.pdf

Research/lab has a medium importance rating and selectivity of undergraduate institution has the lowest importance rating according to a survey of Admission Officers.

3.0/505 from Harvard are not strawman - they do exist and find out they can’t get into medical school just because they attended Harvard.

Based on two kids who I paid through the nose to attend top 5 undergrad schools and how they fared based on GPA and MCAT, i have a pretty good idea of how well they did based on their actual performance in college during the application season.

It is true there are so many factors and weight for each factor may differ for different medical school and hence each student should review carefully the details of specific medical school.

In any common public forum folks are going to share whatever they are familiar and hence students should still do their own due diligence and how it fits to their unique situation.

Still the UG college weight is not that critical. Especially when comparing 2 schools of similar (not comparing an Ivy or Top10 /T20 with 150+ ranked school). For example, recent thread on Baylor vs Union college. Here it really does not matter that much.

Not making a statement. But real example I have is my contact’s S went to UPenn and paid the full prices, graduated BioEngg with excellent GPA, got 39 MCAT and did research but did not get MD admission (unfortunately wait listed at 2 schools). Fortunately that kid is very successful in the non-medicine career pursued.

My D went to lowly ranked 120+ school and still managed to get MD admission. Fortunately spent only around $20-25k for 3 years (it includes $450 SW ticket for first Thanksgiving back home).

Still it is ideal student should choose a solid top UG school to explore various career opportunities and / or enjoy the college experience. But if some one is super clear on Medicine there is no harm in choosing state or any reasonable college. What the student does in that college matters.

MODERATOR’S NOTE: I don’t think the bickering will contribute any more good information. Closing thread.