<p>jym...don't believe everything you hear from your friends and neighbors. We knew someone who was boasting about the great merit aid their child got at Wellesley. Wellesley doesn't GIVE merit aid. We heard the same song and dance from someone who told us their child got a full four year ride from U-Penn. Since U-penn aid is ALL need based, it is determined annually. There would be no way for anyone to know their full package for four years. Also, be weary of believing stats info "on the streets". The bottom line is you don't know how the student's application really looked, or the family finances, or the SAT scores, or the recommendations or anything else. Comparing students just doesn't work. The other thing to consider is enrollment management. Sometimes more merit aid is given to one student over another because the school needs or wants that student. For example, if the school has a fencing team and the student fences...and there are no other freshmen applicants who fence, that student might receive aid because the school NEEDS them.</p>
<p>I agree with thumper about that one. Lots of people really don't know where the money they get comes from. Is it "need based?" Is it "merit?" They have no clue. Sorry to say, but my guess is that your son #1 got whatever they were going to offer him, regardless of how much more effort you had put into it, and they would certainly look at that NMS money and take it into consideration.</p>
<p>If merit money is really important to you (and it is to me) position your second son carefully in regards to what schools he looks at (where he falls in their stats) and you should be able to do better. Good luck!</p>
<p>Thanks all.
Weenie-The NM money he got came form the schoool, so yup, I guess you're right- that's all they were going to give us. The school our s. attends has been, comparatively a "best value" school (per Kiplinger), with the tuition about 10K/yr less than comparable schools in the NE. So thats how we "justified" the price difference. With s. # 2, we'll be strategizing differently. # 1 was looking at schools that didnt offer merit money, and the other 2 he was going to apply to if he hadn't gotten into his ED (he was already accepted at the state Tech school) didnt even offer NM money. So, all in all, we got a little, at a less expensive school. Son #2 isn't as "intense" as s# 1,and will probably not have a school that he absolutely falls in love with. Even if he does, we'll do EA, not ED. Live and learn...</p>
<p>And thumper- I remember your posting about people bragging about the non-existent Wellsley $$. I am not sure if that's funny or sad (or both).</p>
<p>In theory, merit aid is based on merit and not based on need. For the student who does not qualify for need based aid, there should be no reason to submit financial information. Some schools provide "merit" aid while also considering need. Many of these schools are second tier or lower and they are playing discounting games. For the wealthy, they are likely to offer a small merit award. This discounting helps to encourage acceptance while maximizing tuition income. Even the wealthy like to get something for nothing and then too there are bragging rights. For those of more moderate financial means, the merit award discounts are likely to be much more substantial. All of this makes "business" sense, but I can't help feeling that this type of interaction is similar to dealing with a sleazy used-car salesman.</p>
<p>my D1 did not apply early to the school she received unsolicited merit aid from...and we let the school know right away that she would NOT be attending so they could offer the do re mi to someone else!</p>
<p>
[quote]
don't believe everything you hear from your friends and neighbors. We knew someone who was boasting about ...a full four year ride
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Hey, we could have boasted about the full 4-year ride DS was "offered" by one school. It consisted of $11K merit grant and $30K loans. Don't think that's the kind of full ride to boast about, but I bet some do. LOL</p>
<p>re ED - S applied EA, but not ED, to the schools he got merit from. I have heard that schools won't offer you their best deal if you go ED. I've also heard counter-examples. jym, I think you're just trying to look backward for s#1 on this particular qx. But for s#2, if you want merit aid, I'm sure you know NOT to even consider ED. You want him to apply to several schools he likes and see how the merit shakes out. </p>
<p>Be aware, too, that when the schools offer the merit $$, they can also trot out their recruitment efforts (letters from Deans/profs, calls from alums/students etc.). Some might look at this cynically, but I found that it had an honest effect on S's deliberations re schools. First, it often provided new information or ideas about his opportunities there. Second, anyone likes feeling wanted. When School A really wants you, it can certainly move it up on the kid's preference ladder.</p>
<p>Check with EACH school about what is required to be eligible for merit aid. Only one of the schools my D applied to (not counting Michigan) even gave out merit aid. And it required both CSS and FAFSA for ALL kids, even those with high EFC. And, no, she didn't get any merit aid from this school (despite 36 ACT, 3.96 UW GPA, AP scholar with distinction). Merit aid from that school went to the students they really wanted to attract (certain URMs who had MUCH lower stats). DON'T fool yourself. Very few schools give out "merit money" except large state schools trying to attract NMF. They give out "recruitment money." These colleges are big businesses whose job it is to fill their freshman class with specific categories of students and they will pay to get them. This may actually have very little to do with merit.</p>
<p>We did not complete FAFSA forms (we knew we were not eligible for aid). Our son got significant merit offers from five colleges. Yes, you should check with each individual school to make sure, but I think filling out the forms is a waste of time for most schools (unless you think you might qualify for need based aid).</p>
<p>Agree with other posters than any stories you hear on the street should be taken with a grain of salt (of course that's true for what you read here, unless people are telling of their own experiences) since people are often just confused.</p>
<p>What matters is the policy at the individual schools your s. will apply to and since you won't know that until just about the same time the FAFSA is due, I would fill out the FAFSA and send it to the schools where it's required for merit or where you have reason to believe it might make sense. You don't have to send it to every school.</p>
<p>One other thing about merit money. I've always thought need-based was the 'safer' route to go for students who apply, because if the family income rises and the student no longer qualifies, well, isn't he lucky? and need based aid should keep pace with rises in tuition. Be careful to know before committing to a school what's required to keep the merit money - I would ask schools, once they've made a merit offer, what percentage of students manage to hold on to the merit money all four years. Things happen (especially to freshmen) and if a merit award is a large factor in a student's decision to attend, think if your family would be willing to pay the full tuition if the merit money was lost. I think the amount of merit money is fixed for the four years. (Son was offered merit money, a fixed amount, at a 2nd tier school that would have been perfectly acceptable but chose to go to a need-based school where he was given a much smaller award. It's worked out for him.)</p>
<p>Guiltguru: Actually, there are quite a few good schools (outside of the top 25)that give merit money. Schools like Lehigh, Richmond, Dickinson, Boston University, GW University, Gettysburg, Vanderbilt, Washington and Lee, Emory, Univ of Miami. The key is to have a much better profile (GPA, SAT, and ECs) than most of the students attending the college. Ivy league stats will get you $ at many different schools, not just the the big state universities. There's quite a few good posts on this board about schools that give merit money. Our son is not an URM and got 5 excellent merit scholarship offers from top 50 schools (with no FAFSA forms). Just don't assume it's an automatic - some schools (like Wake Forest and Richmond for example) are getting much more restrictive with this type of aid.</p>
<p>Hey, in a "blind leading the blind" situation, I'll try to answer these. :)
[quote]
So, if they had all of our financial aid info, would it have helped or hurt us on the merit aid side??
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I think it helps to show that you are full-pay at many private schools. (But, IMHO not for the school your older son attends.) For maximizing yield many schools like to spread the merit money around.<br>
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Help! If we pay anything for older s's grad school, how much will that affect our financial aid status?
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I don't believe it will affect your financial situation at all - at least not with FAFSA schools. I'm not sure if some PROFILE schools take it into account. FAFSA schools don't believe that you are responsible for graduate school tuition. (Neither do I! ;) )</p>
<p>
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3) So... will we have to fill out the CSS(for those schools that want the CSS) and/or FAFSA to be considered for merit aid at all the schools to which he applies? Does this vary school-to-school?
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Varies from school to school - but if you are doing it for one, why not do it for all?
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5) Lastly, is it too late to move things out of our s's name (he's a rising junior), or is that only necessary if you are applying for need-based aid or loans?
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Only necessary if you are applying for need-based aid or loans, (you aren't -so don't need to consider this.) and it is ethically dicey unless the money is used to provide direct benefits to student at that point in time. (summer instruction, computer, etc.)
:) Oh man, I am SO proud of myself for getting all the little quote boxes in the right place. The THINGS I learn on College Confidential! ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Guiltguru: Actually, there are quite a few good schools (outside of the top 25)that give merit money. Schools like Lehigh, Richmond, Dickinson, Boston University, GW University, Gettysburg, Vanderbilt, Washington and Lee, Emory, Univ of Miami. The key is to have a much better profile (GPA, SAT, and ECs) than most of the students attending the college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think that in many cases, it's more complicated than just having " a much better profile (GPA, SAT, and ECs) than most of the students attending the college."</p>
<p>I think quiltguru's characterization of "merit money" as "recruitment money" is on the mark. Colleges do use this money to recruit specific types of students that may be in short supply at their particular institutions. </p>
<p>E.g., many liberal arts colleges have a male-female imbalance and I understand that merit aid is used extensively at places like Skidmore specifically to attract more strong male applicants. At Caltech and some other engineering schools, the imbalance in the applicant pool goes the other way, and it seems that merit aid is disproportionately directed at women and minority applicants. </p>
<p>Other schools may want to attract a broader mix of students from different religions, musicians, etc.</p>
<p>Merit aid might more properly be called "targeted tuition discounts for strategic enrollment management." The less accurate but more flattering term "merit scholarship" is used because it helps with recruiting.</p>
<p>David Kirp's Shakespeare, Einstein, and the Bottom Line : The Marketing of Higher Education is recommended reading for those who want to understand the economic reality colleges face when they determine their policies.</p>
<p>Wisteria; Agree that it may be more complicated - just sharing my personal experience. My son is not a URM and is not particularly unique (exellent sudent, eagle scout, strong tennis player). I agree that he was offered "recruitment money" from schools that want to raise thier academic profile. We researched and then visited the schools that gave merit aid - those that were good fits were put on the list. I think this increased our chances of getting $. Yes, we were also dissapointed with some schools that gave zilch. But overall, getting merit aid from 5 out of 9 schools is pretty good. My point is to do research and try at the schools that are known to be generous with this type of aid (if you think this is important). Lots of parents are totally oblivious, end up with no $ offers and are forced to look at loans. Yes, schools are marketing machines. Given the emphasis students and parents put on US News rankings, l can't say I'm surprised.</p>
<p>wisteria, Sorry to say you are completely wrong about Skidmore. They will readily tell you that they do not give merit aid - to anybody. They have a few scholarships that are very competitive ( I recall a Filene's music one). </p>
<p>toneranger, Your thoughts are dead on. It is a matter of doing the sort of research that you describe. And your point about the emphasis on US News ratings is so true. With everyone trying to apply to the same top 25 schools it is crazy.</p>
<p>
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wisteria, Sorry to say you are completely wrong about Skidmore. They will readily tell you that they do not give merit aid - to anybody. They have a few scholarships that are very competitive ( I recall a Filene's music one).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>According to this article, the Filene music scholarships and the Porter scholarships in science each provide support to 16 students per year at Skidmore, for a total of 32 merit scholarships "without considerations of need." </p>
<p>That doesn't sound to me like "not giving merit aid - to anybody."</p>
<p>Admittedly, schools like Chicago, WUSTL, and Duke offer a larger number of merit scholarships than Skidmore, but they are much larger and also have larger endowments.</p>
<p>The Porter scholars are named in honor of a recent former president of Skidmore and it sounds as though it is a high profile initiative with ongoing efforts to raise additional money to support the program. Each of the Porter scholars receives $10,000 per year. Despite the name of the scholarship, recipients are not actually required to major in math or science.</p>
<p>Colleges don't always have to give a lot of merit scholarships to benefit from a merit scholar program--a relatively small number of scholarships can generate a "buzz" about the school and result in some free publicity. (A number of high school guidance webpages list the Skidmore Porter scholarships, for example.) </p>
<p>Attracting a few high-profile students can be very useful to a college's enrollment management strategy, which probably explains why Skidmore sees the Porter merit scholarships as an important priority for its endowment.</p>
<p>I did forget about Porter. How many do they offer and where did you find that info? When we visited Skidmore the admissions rep who did the info session was very clear about merit aid (or general lack thereof). Anyway, in my experience it was one of the really stingy schools with merit aid, especially considering its very high price tag. </p>
<p>Here is an interesting excerpt from the article you referenced:
"More telling than the size of the principal, Glotzbach argues, is the endowment takeout per student each yearthe average funding per student thats transferred into the operating budget for direct support of academic programs, student life, facilities, and scholarship aid. Hamilton, at the top of the peer group, drew roughly $11,900 per student in 2003, more than triple the $3,400 that Skidmore mustered. Colleges like Hamilton can and do lure talented students away from Skidmore by offering larger aid packages."</p>
<p>
[quote]
I did forget about Porter. How many do they offer
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The third article I quoted above says that Porter supports 16 students a year (presumably in all four classes, since a recent press release named 5 entering freshmen as recipients.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
and where did you find that info?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Several years ago I remember reading an article somewhere that described Skidmore's Porter merit scholarships in science/math as part of their strategy to improve the balance of male/female applications. </p>
<p>I can't track down that original article, but in looking for it, I found a different article in the NYT with an interesting quote from a Skidmore economist:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sandra Baum, an economist at Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., notes that some colleges are now routinely using merit aid to adjust their male-female mix.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Skidmore's Prof. Baum is a widely quoted expert on the economics of higher education, so Skidmore is clearly well aware that their competition is using merit aid to improve the male/female balance--a tough issue for Skidmore (and other formerly all-women's colleges as well.) The whole article is well worth reading for a better understanding of college pricing practices.</p>
<p>Here's another article that describes the overall problem Skidmore faces in attracting the right balance of male/female students.</p>
<p>Anyway, it wasn't hard to find the links to the information about the Porter scholarship on Skidmore tuition and financial aid pages--they have a prominent tab specifically labelled "merit scholarships."</p>
<p>It is interesting that they so strongly downplayed the merit scholarships at the campus info session. It may be that the primary purpose of the small number of merit scholarships is to attract interest to the college--and once you're visiting there, it has served its purpose. (Johns Hopkins got a good deal of flack at one point because they had an enrollment management strategy which reduced the aid awarded to students who had made campus visits, on the theory that it would be better used for students who hadn't visited and might need more enticement to attend! All of this was based on their statistical models of past applicant behavior.)</p>
<p>Hello again-
Update-
My H feels that if we won't qualify for fin aid, we shouldn't mark "yes" in the fin. aid box on the application. However, He still feels we'll be considered for merit aid. Is this true?</p>
<p>I know someone who did not apply for financial aid b/c the family felt that they would not qualify. They felt that they were at an advantage by not filling out the financial aid forms b/c the schools would not know the family's assets (felt that this would help in getting merit aid, but I don't think it did). They also felt that their son could get into "better" schools b/c they were not asking for financial assistance (which did happen, IMO). In this case, the family is upper middle class, and some could argue wealthy. The applicant was offered merit aid at several schools where he was in the top 25% of the applicant pool. He did not receive merit aid where he was an average, or weaker applicant, but was admitted to many of the private school reaches (where his stats were still in the ballpark) without money. He was not accepted to public school reaches. He was not applying to top level schools, but schools where the sat range is in the mid 500's to the upper 600 range. Hope that this helps.</p>
<p>Thanks, NEM</p>