Yes…and no. These are not particularly lucrative entry level positions…and the competition for higher paying and lucrative positions is very very intense. So, yes someday she might have the potential to earn a lot of money…but the fact is that right out of college…this isn’t a slam dunk.
We were careful to not overextend ourselves and took on no debt. DD had two years at community college then two years at an inexpensive state U and so ended up with just the junior and senior year federal loans. Our plan proved to be extremely fortunate as DH was laid off halfway through that junior year and was without a paycheck for 17 months. Not every family suffers that kind of financial reversal, but you should keep that risk in mind when doing your own calculations.
Honestly, in your position, it doesn’t matter much.
Parents who can afford to foot the whole bill may want kids to take small federal loans to have skin in the game, but in your situation, loans are a necessity. Your student can’t take a private loan without a co-signer, which is often the parents. And, frankly, in her chosen industry, her earnings may fluctuate and you will need to help pay the loans after graduation.
I have 3. Oldest 2 graduated from private high school which was not a financially smart move, but in our circumstances, kept them on the correct. path. DS1 got a fantastic scholarship and could have graduated almost debt free. Instead, he maxed the federal loans and took advantage of study abroad opportunities. DS2 required us to take a Parent Plus loan for year 1. He received 3 yr ROTC scholarship and chose a school that kicks in housing. DD is our last and we will be taking private loans in her name with us as co-signers. She is a non-STEM kid (unlike our sons) and we anticipate having to help pay student loans after graduation. We justify it in our minds since we paid private high school for the boys, but the truth is, without large savings and in a high middle class income, we only have a few choices. Living at home as a commuter was considered as well as taking a few years off before college, but, in the end, at this stage, a residential 4 yr is best for her.
Living in the dorms freshman year is an experience that can’t be beat. I highly recommend students find a way to do it. I was lucky to not commute and miss out on so much - those late night conversations et al. Consider the costs of a car, driving and parking, and the time away from the campus.
It should be based on what you can afford. Our daughter had to take out the federal loans. She will be paying that back herself. We are paying as we go the rest of her costs (around $10,000 for this first year) and she was lucky to get a $10,000 per year scholarship that was a wonderful blessing. I don’t think a $300 a month student loan should be crippling to anyone. You could work at McDonald’s and pay that back. I have two nieces who graduated with $80,000 in debt from their bachelor’s degrees. That is a $1,000 payment each month. Ouch. It depends on what your child is planning to study and what their earning potential will be. I have three more kids to send to college too and they may not all going to university (may start at CC and transfer or may go to university and commute), even though they are A students. I am not worried about treating them all equally, I can’t afford to. They also all have very different ambition, my firstborn is very driven and studious and she very much earned to be where she is at right now. We will see where the other three land! We are definitely not paying for all of it, unless they go to CC.
@thumper1 If my daughter takes out the federal loans, we could afford to pay some of the balance out of pocket but would need some loans. It would not be difficult for us to repay those loans, even starting right away. We just don’t have $60,000 in the bank to pay in full. We definitely plan to work within our budget (for example, despite a very nice scholarship from Berklee, we know it would not be a wise choice.) Some of the schools she applied to are known to be generous with grants and scholarships (including a few who are actively recruiting her) and one state school with tuition of only $6400 so I’m hoping with can negotiate a bit with the top 2-3 schools before decision time. The good news is that we already have offers that are reasonable and we can work with. I do understand that no music school degree will guarantee a well-paying job but I do think a job paying at least $30-$40K would be possible which would ensure she could repay her loan. She might not be living the life of luxury, but would be productive and responsible. However, I would say the risk is there for almost any degree. I know young men and women with law degrees and chemistry degrees who are still struggling to repay college loans and haven’t landed a well-paying job in their field even after 2 years. And these aren’t slackers, mind you! My daughter applied to 9 schools and isn’t “married” to any. She actually really likes them all and told me it will be a hard decision. So she is keeping an open mind which is great. I truly appreciate your perspective and will definitely make decisions that fit our budget and will be in my daughter’s best interest, given all the complexities of this college journey.
I seriously doubt you will have negotiating power with Berklee.
For music industry and the like…there are much less costly colleges out there.
Boston has expensive real estate so housing is expensive on or off campus.
Just FYI…my kid was a music major, and he is not a slacker by any measure or means. He is 9 years post masters and is making in the range of what your kid hopes to make when she graduates…and he lives in a very modest cost of living area…not Boston, not NY. And he doesn’t have expensive taste.
He is also a freelancer and has to pay for his own health insurance…no company to help with that.
I’m not trying to be doom and gloom…but your DD also needs to plan to have some others means to make ends meet until she lands a full time job with benefits and can pay all of her bills. My kid has a restaurant job at a very high end restaurant. My kid works a bunch of part time jobs. He loves what he does…and we DO need folks like him. But, it’s not an easy money earning life.
My music performance major niece (scholarship at a good school) and her music H ended up with his running a music studio and she was a music organization front office worker- now a nonmusic type job. Modest means. She realized how much work (time) it was to play even in lesser organizations, better to have time for family. Post #26 is great in my opinion regarding music.
You definitely need to do what’s right for you and your pocketbook.
Right now, our dd pays for her books and all incidental expenses at college, including studying abroad. She has a high paying co-op that will start next year so we’re discussing what her new contribution will be going forward, or if we will have her bank that money for grad school.
I think that @AmyIzzy is aware that every situation is different but I also understand why the question is being asked. Everyone will give a different answer based on their own circumstances but just maybe someone will throw out an idea that the OP hasn’t thought about that will work in their situation. Never hurts to have many ideas.
Here’s how our family did it. 2 children. . Both told that if they chose in state schools we would cover everything. If they chose out of state they would be responsible for the difference.
Child 1 is out of state. Will graduate with loans. It was child ones choice.
Child 2 is in state. We are covering expenses. Still took out the student Stafford loans but we are paying those back for child 2 based on our agreement.
No parent plus loans for us.
Good luck @AmyIzzy
Well, we saved about $30,000 for each of our 5 kids. The rest is on them (plus we pay loan interest while they are in school, which can be over $1000 a month). D18 graduated a semester early and worked part time, dormed 2 years and then moved off campus. She has loans but a great paying job coming up (just needs to finish her CPA). Ds20 also went in state, will graduate a semester early, worked part time and will have 2 years off campus. My current senior got the top scholarships offered at most colleges she applied to, all OOS and most private (darn you Villanova with those few lousy scholarships). Her tuition should be around $25,000 a year with room/board at all of them, 6/7 year program.
All will major in areas where there are good paying jobs. We live in a high COL so forget financial aid. We will not sacrifice our retirement goals for college debt.
I have three kids and I expect them to take the federal loan each year to have what others have said with some skin in the game. We may decide to pay each of them off at the end, but that’s a future decision. Two of them are in private high schools so this is a reasonable “ask.” My S19 has been asked to join a civic scholars program at one of the colleges he’s been accepted and it offers an annual $3k scholarship. He wondered why he would do it if he didn’t get paid. Duh, it’s like a part time job.
@thumper1 It really isn’t “doom and gloom.” It’s just being realistic which is very much necessary when we are talking a big bucks investment. So I thank you for the honesty and blunt assessment.
I think you misunderstood me regarding Berklee. She did get a good scholarship but it is still over our budget (you are spot on about the housing costs-insane!) We haven’t taken it off the list because they would allow her to get 24 liberal arts credits at a local college and transfer as a Sophmore (so paying for 3 years instead of 4 would help immensely) but I am well aware that schools like Berklee or NYU (which she did not apply to) simply don’t negotiate. They don’t have to. There is always a student waiting in line, some who are happy to pay full tuition.
But many of the schools on her list will negotiate (I know through others who had experience and/or the schools telling me this directly) so those may be the schools we focus on in the end. It may just mean an extra $1000-$2000 but every little bit helps.
I should mention that my daughter has applied for outside music scholarships too. Her school is a huge arts school so they offer a number of scholarships ranging from $500-$2500 so she has applied to all of them, most of which require an audition. No guarantee but if she is able to grab a few of those, it would be great! She recently was recognized by the National YoungArts Foundation and invited to an all-expenses paid regional program in NYC and that seems to have grabbed the attention of some of her colleges since only 10% of applicants are chosen. She has been asked about it during auditions. Music is just so competitive so she’s trying to stand out in any way she can and spruce up her resume whenever and wherever possible. I supppse it’s good experience prepping for the real world in the music industry. If you don’t make a splash, you’ll likely be overlooked.
My daughter is a skilled make-up artist and currently makes good money doing weddings, proms, face painting and theatre make-up and also loves the idea of being a nanny (lots of babysitting experience) so she should have some fall-back options if she doesn’t land a good-paying job in her field or if she tries to make money towards college in the summer or on weekends. Nothing is ever 100% secure but most young adults find a way to make things work, whether it be taking on a few jobs or moving back home (hopefully temporarily!)
Going back to my original questions, I know parents who required their child to pay for college. The student had to hold a job, take on a full courseload, and work like crazy to keep his grades up. On his college graduation day, his parents basically surprised him and paid him back in full in appreciation for his efforts. Not saying that’s a good idea (and I know that’s not something we could do even if we wanted to) but thought it was an interesting idea. Just to put into perspective, this was quite a few years back and involved a low-cost local college.
Thanks again to everyone who has responded!
OP- Just a suggestion- the most successful negotiations I have seen have all begun and ended as follows:
“Your college is my top choice. If you can increase the award by 3K or 4.2K (fill in the blank) I am prepared to sign on the dotted line”.
Whatever you’ve heard in terms of playing one school off against the other, or having multiple discussions back and forth with multiple schools- I take those with a huge grain of salt. It’s fun to be in the driver’s seat- but I have observed that the strongest negotiations are based on honesty and a very direct “if you can match this number I will be there in August”.
Yes, you can play whack a mole for three weeks waiting to hear back, upping your “ask” by $500 every time another college responds. But your strongest selling point is going to be your D telling the financial aid officer “You are my number one choice and if you can match my number three choice, you’re it”.
This isn’t a casino and you aren’t in Vegas. And you burn a lot of bridges trying to negotiate with multiple schools simultaneously. What if your D gets to her number one school and hates it- and tries to transfer for sophomore year? Well, she’ll be back “in discussions” with the very same financial aid officers that she may have burned last go round. Unless she decides to become a classics major… the pool of likely music programs isn’t getting any bigger in one year.
If you can’t afford her number one choice- ask for reconsideration. But I don’t think a multiple front negotiation is the way to think about the process.
Your D sounds fantastic btw! Theatrical make-up- a very cool skill for a college kid!
@blossom I think I left the wrong impression and perhaps the term “negotiate” isn’t the best one. In speaking to other parents of music majors, this usually occurs once you have it down to your top 2 choices. It’s not so much playing one against the other as saying “your school is a top choice for my daughter. This is my bottom line” and seeing which school can accommodate more. In my daughter’s case, she can truly see herself at any of the schools she applied to. For some, the city is a huge factor (loves the cool vibe of Chicago and the warmth of Miami, for example.) For others, they have a top rated recorded arts/pop/commercial music program. For others, she really connected with the professors. She really has a great list. She’ll do some Accepted Student days to help narrow it down. But I believe when she has her top 2 they will likely be on equal footing so we will just be honest about our financial limits (and I’m not talking about some crazy unrealistic demands, just approaching with the goal of getting the cost down a bit in the final weeks) and if they can work with us, great. If not, we either bite the bullet and make it work or decide a particular school was not meant to be.
Yes, she’s very musical but artsy in other ways too so the make-up creating always came naturally to her. She has built up a great reputation with the wedding make-up and is requested so often her boss just gave her a raise. As a mom, of course I worry about the struggles that come with the life of a musician but I also know the passion behind it and know she’d be miserable in the corporate world or doing something just because it pays a lot. As a teacher who loves my job, I can relate and I have no regrets!
As others have said, you’ll get a lot of different answers. We had an amount we could pay without incurring parental debt. Anything over that, the kids took loans for. They worked/work summers to pay for books, incidentals and entertainment. Eldest picked up various scholarships over the years and so she graduated with 8k total in student loans. She’s got a good job and already pulled that total down quite a bit. 2nd kid took 3000 out this first year. We will see if and how much he needs to take next year. Worst case, 12k but hopefully less than that.
Our kids help because they need to. I can’t really say what I’d do if we were in the position to give them a full ride. That said, I do see value in them helping and I know that while debt scares them, they feel really good about contributing.
I really don’t understand the “skin in the game” philosophy. Getting good grades and having a career after college graduation is enough skin in the game and motivatation for them. It’s how we have raised them. They won’t squander the college opportunity.
One of our goals as parents is to give our kids the best education we can afford and to have them graduate college debt free and is the reason we starting saving money for college for them when they were born.
I don’t want them to take out college loans just to make a point or have skin in the game. They will have a hard enough time saving money on their own to buy other things like a house and starting their own life. Why saddle them with a ton of college debt that will take them 5-10 years to pay off.
D1 chose a more expensive option and she offered to pay $10K/year (borrowing from mom bank). I took her up on it. She gave me some money after each summer (not much). While she was in school, I did pay for everything and that included monthly allowance. My stipulation was she had to get B and above GPA and she had to work min 10 hrs/week. She got good enough grades to get a job in banking, and I forgave her loans upon graduation.
With D2 I didn’t ask her to contribute because 1) she knew her sister didn’t have to pay me back, 2) D2 was a humanities major and going to law school, so she wasn’t going to make much money out of college. D2 actually did better than D1 in college (GPA wise) and she didn’t have skin in the game other than the fact she knew she needed very high GPA to get into her law school of choice.
I think OP’s situation is more financial, not whether her D would do better in college if she had skin in the game. Sounds like her D is very driven already.
One advantage of going to a school in a large city is there are more opportunities to make money, even just from babysitter, tutoring or giving music lessons. D2 is going to a graduate school in a large city and is on her own. She is paying for most of her living expenses by babysitting few hours a week.
The counselor I am seeing told me she does not have a single client under the age of 45 who is not still paying off student loans! Crazy.