How Orthodox Catholic is ND Really?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
1

<p>We are left coast Catholics, and D. has gone to Jesuit schools and public and decided after rebelling a bit to "embrace her inner Catholic kid" and she's applied at many Catholic colleges, all Jesuit except ND. </p>

<p>So I am reading the online version of the ND newspaper and I find a letter to the editor from a Freshman setting forth all of the Church's arguments about why condoms are a bad idea. </p>

<p>Is she representative of the undergraduate point of view or is she a far-off the map uber-Catholic wingnut?</p>

<p>Thinking Catholics we can deal with, but ultra-orthodox maybe D. needs to rethink where she wants to go.</p>

<p>How orthodox is the Catholic thinking at ND? Is there room to question and debate official Church teaching?</p>

2

<p>There is tons of room to debate and if you looked at the paper the next day there were tons of replies to that article. Debate is what we do. ND is going to be more conservative than most any Jesuit school, but that doesn't mean you can't have disagreements. I would say the vast majority of Catholics at ND are not that far right, though I personally am. I really don't think your daughter will have a problem here, she may view it as conservative (as I view it as liberal) but I think she will be comfortable with it.</p>

3

<p>"Is she representative of the undergraduate point of view or is she a far-off the map uber-Catholic wingnut?"</p>

<p>Not to get into a debate here, but I fail to see how embracing basic Catholic teaching at a Catholic university makes one a "uber-Catholic wingnut." </p>

<p>Notre Dame is unique in that it is really the only 'elite' university that actually embraces its Catholic identity instead of shunning it (as BC and Georgetown have).</p>

4

<p>lol, I kind of thought that myself...it is like does following the teachings of the Church make me an uber-Catholic wingnut? I have some feelings on that too, but I will save the debate :). The fact of the matter is that I am an uber-Catholic wingnut, but I wouldn't say most ND students are.</p>

5

<p>Sorry--but continuing to hold the line against condom use in light of the reality of AIDs is wingnutty to me for a church who has such a strong pro-life stance. I understand the argument, and in a purely theoretical sense I agree that sexual activity <em>should</em> be all of those things, but the reality is that it is not. </p>

<p>In our experience, priests and Catholic lay teachers understand the point of view of the church, but one of the strengths of the Catholic clergy in my view is that they have a deep understanding of human nature and are not inclined to judge or condemn people who fall short of the ideals espoused by the church. </p>

<p>She's visiting in a couple of months, and I expect she'll have a better sense of how she fits in. I was surprised though, as I have met several ND students and recent alums and they did not strike me as orthodox at all.</p>

6

<p>I think you need to drop the "orthodox" bit. Catholic is Catholic. You cannot be a buffet Catholic and pick and choose what you want to believe. You either follow the Pope's teachings or you do not. If you do not, you do not belong at Notre Dame. Go to Georgetown or BC.</p>

7

<p>"You either follow the Pope's teachings or you do not. If you do not, you do not belong at Notre Dame. Go to Georgetown or BC."</p>

<p>Wait!! What???</p>

<p>are you saying that non catholics should not go to Notre Dame? and that if one does not follow the teachings of the pope, that he or she does not belong at ND? I hope i misunderstood you</p>

8

<p>No. I should have clarified that. Notre Dame is accepting of people of all faiths. But if her daughter (like her mother) considers devout Catholics to be "far-off-the-map uber Catholic wingnuts" then she doesn't belong at Notre Dame.</p>

9

<p>Notre Dame is a very accepting place. There are some "uber-Catholic wingnuts" around, but there are also some card-carrying athiests and quite a few people who couldn't care less one way or the other. There is a broad spectrum and I think pretty much everyone can find a place to fit in. However, even though the university is accepting of many different types of people, that also means that you have to be accepting of the university. I don't mean that you can't question of challenge the university's policies or teachings at all. But if you plan on coming here and complaining constantly about how conservative it is or how unreasonable its rules are, then ND probably isnt the school for you. You can't come to Notre Dame expecting it to be like every other school in the country. If Notre Dame were to abandon its Catholic character, then it wouldn't be Notre Dame. Everyone is welcome, but Notre Dame is a Catholic place. And to be truly Catholic, as sunshadow said, there are some things that you just can't pick and choose.</p>

10

<p>Condoms are frowned upon by Catholicism in general, not just "ultra-orthodox"s.</p>

11

<p>Amen, sunshadow! </p>

<p>Uber-Catholic wingnut? Just what is that supposed to be, Mombot?</p>

<p>I'd say Catholicism is a LOT more complex than you appear to make it to be. </p>

<p>Through your comment, you appear to make one particular Catholic viewpoint out to be either intellectually vacuous, or just plain nuts. It is ironic that you seem to have pretty well pegged whomever you spoke to as being rather unenlightened, without the benefit of knowing the rest of what they think. Funny, I always thought enlightenment was the ability to be aware of numerous points of view while still holding one's own points of view. You seem to think that enlightenment is not a matter of openness, but of conforming to your definition of open. </p>

<p>Notre Dame can be a good place for those who do not subscribe to Catholic, or even Christian, beliefs. It is not, however, a good place for those who are not open to others holding Catholic viewpoints. A downright rotten one, in fact.</p>

<p>If you have to ask this kind of question, I'd think twice about committing to ND. There are plenty of people who don't view the spectrum of the Catholic faith as being that of the uber wingnuts. Quite a waiting list, in fact. Were you to have used such terms in a public forum regarding a race or ethnicity, few would dispute it to be a bigoted act. Why do you feel so free to toss around the term in association with Catholicism? Talk about a double-standard...</p>

<p>By the way, the term orthodox in the context of Catholicism is not used in the same sense as the term is used for Judaism. It is, rather, a name for a religion which is not Roman Catholic, but one of the Eastern European rites which came to be during the great Schism of the early Middle Ages. Pre-dating the Protestant Reformation, those of eastern rites recognized a different pope than that of Rome. My maternal grandparents were Greek Orthodox Catholics--their priests could marry and they do not recognize a pope, but most of the rituals and sacraments are nearly identical to those of Roman Catholicism. My mom converted to Roman Catholicism when she met and married my dad.</p>

<p>As an alumna, as well as the parent of an ND soph and an ND freshman-to-be, I'd think twice before signing off on ND if what you say reflects the attitude held by your daughter...</p>

12

<p>"No. I should have clarified that. Notre Dame is accepting of people of all faiths. But if her daughter (like her mother) considers devout Catholics to be "far-off-the-map uber Catholic wingnuts" then she doesn't belong at Notre Dame."</p>

<p>As someone who does consider the kind of "devout" Catholics mentioned in this thread "far off the map" (does that mean that I don't belong at Notre Dame?), I'm going to go ahead and give my impression, which hopefully will be helpful to you, the original poster.</p>

<p>My basic experience is that the administration by and large embodies the "orthodox" political philosophy that you rightfully wish to avoid. On any given issue, they are going to follow whatever the pope's "official" position is at that point in time (which is often completely ridiculous, as in your example). The hierarchy of the Catholic Church does not encourage dissent among its members, and believe me, the administration does consider the university to be an important component of that hierarchy.</p>

<p>That said, aside from a few screwballs who have a habit of getting letters published in the Observer, most members of the student body possess a more rational, pragmatic mindset that will serve them well in the real world. Lots of people I have met don't care too much for the political aspect of the Catholic Church (myself included, if you can't tell) and are willing and able to form their own opinions on issues. So I wouldn't expect Notre Dame to skew your daughter's views, even though many indications suggest that it might.</p>

13

<p>What exactly is an "orthodox" political philosophy? </p>

<p>Are you suggesting, nameless, that somehow those who subscribe to whatever political philosophy you apparently disdain are doing so out of irrationality? </p>

<p>To swipe a phrase from my 17 year-old Domer to be...Puh-LEEEASE!</p>

14

<p>What exactly is an "orthodox" political philosophy? </p>

<p>--- I was wondering that as well</p>

<p>umm here are my thoughts</p>

<p>Notre Dame is not a school that will force beliefs upon you.... ND is not spreading the word by the sword... def not</p>

<p>But if you think that you are going to go to Notre Dame and completely ignore the religious atmosphere, then you are in for a surprise</p>

<p>If you are going to attend a Catholic CATHOLIC university you need to be open ( not necessarily follow ) the Catholic viewpoints, morals, and "laws" if you will</p>

<p>Personally, I have been going to a catholic school since kindergarten..... and even though i don't consider myself an evangelistic, bible studying, jesus wanna-be........ i would consider myself a catholic and religious person who constantly has his eyes open to the world around me in a moral and catholic perspective</p>

<p>So even though religion wont be forced upon you... the religion is still going to be there and will be omnipresent.... so if your worried about avoiding it all together then ND will prob not be the school for you</p>

15

<p>"What exactly is an "orthodox" political philosophy?"</p>

<p>What I meant by that is one that is informed largely by religious beliefs and traditions rather than careful study of the real, observable world. </p>

<p>"Are you suggesting, nameless, that somehow those who subscribe to whatever political philosophy you apparently disdain are doing so out of irrationality?"</p>

<p>No, obviously. I'm just saying that I would consider the act of justifying any political philosophy or specific policy on religious belief to be irrational (almost by definition). Preventing the use of condoms to combat AIDS can only be justified on religious grounds, as far as I can tell, so I would consider it entirely irrational.</p>

16

<p>On the other side of this question of fitting in. . .
My daughter has gotten accepted and is worried that Notre Dame may not be a good match because she is a very spiritual, consientious young woman. She goes to daily mass and weekly adoration hours, is very interested in being involved in a dynamic Campus Ministry program. She is very pro-life and even gives peer lectures on pro-life/chastity to schools and youth groups.
She would love to go to a truly "Catholic" school like Franciscan U, but she wants to pursue engineering.
What do you think IRISH? Anyone else?</p>

17

<p>PM to Russ.</p>

<p>Also, I may be mistaken but for the people who keep using the AIDS in Africa defense for contraception, I am pretty sure the Church has okayed the use of condoms in those areas because they view the greater threat to be AIDS. However, that doesn't mean that they should be okayed everywhere in my opinion. I am trying to stay out of this debate because I don't have time for it right now, lol, but know that that argument doesn't really hold up because the Church does permit it (I think) in Africa due to that epidemic.</p>

18

<p>russ08. I am an ND grad from long ago. My friend at school was much like your daughter and was very,very happy at ND. I think she felt as if she were on a constant retreat. There is a very special place for her at ND. She will find people like her and many groups to spend time with. As a non catholic I found myself caught up in the catholic culture and learned so much. This was not my intent when I went there:) but added a very special unexpected dimention.</p>

19

<p>"What I meant by that is one that is informed largely by religious beliefs and traditions rather than careful study of the real, observable world. "</p>

<p>So, in other words, nameless, you are suggesting that those beliefs which differ from your own are the product solely of the ignorant and uniformed? Perhaps I'm off the mark, but your statements contain more than a subtle hint of arrogance. Come to think of it, perhaps I'm on the mark.</p>

<p>I presume from your postings that you are an ND student. I remember students similiar to you from my days there in the early '80's and hear my son make reference the same. Don't know if you fit in this category, but there always seemed to be one or two folks like you in discussion classes, laying out their point of view as if it were gospel because it conformed to the elistist leftist views ever-present in academia, and talking down their noses to the rest of us as if we were hopelessly ignorant. I remember getting quite a charge out of debating such types who were convinced their world view was so much more enlightened than anyone else's. I remember as well coming out ahead in those debates about 95% of the time. It was almost as fun as interhall basketball...but not quite. In keeping with family tradition, my son now does the same.</p>

<p>Thing is, nameless, it isn't a matter of where one's ideology lies, or even one's given view on a particular issue. You may note that I have not shared my view on condom use, nor do I intend to--as it is completely irrelevant, in my opinion, to this discussion. </p>

<p>It is one thing to hold a particular viewpoint and believe it to be true. It is another entirely to believe that those who do not share your viewpoint or mindset do so out of ignorance or irrationality. Left, right or center, there is a word to describe those who feel that way. It is called arrogance. </p>

<p>For those concerned that their sons or daughters who are more traditional in their Catholic beliefs will be ostracized up at ND, I didn't say it in my day, nor does my son see it now. If anything, people like nameless, who consider those who disagree with them to be woefully ignorant, provide a good exercise in the types of attitudes they are bound to face in the future, particularly in a popular culture increasingly antithetical to religion. </p>

<p>By the way, nameless, do you find me to be unenlighted? Or simply irrational?</p>

<p>I'll bet there are lots of Domers licking their chops to debate you in small seminar classes...</p>

20

<p>"So, in other words, nameless, you are suggesting that those beliefs which differ from your own are the product solely of the ignorant and uniformed?"</p>

<p>No, what you just said and what I said are not the same. I am suggesting that those political views that are fueled purely by religion are ignorant and uninformed. That's it.</p>

<p>"Perhaps I'm off the mark, but your statements contain more than a subtle hint of arrogance. Come to think of it, perhaps I'm on the mark."</p>

<p>In my first post, I would actually agree. I try not to come off as arrogant online (and I'm honestly not at all arrogant in real life), but sometimes it doesn't work and I think parts of my original post are examples of that. I suppose that my tone was just a product with my frustration with people who think that religion is the most important factor in any decision. Please, don't blow me off for that reason.</p>

<p>"I presume from your postings that you are an ND student."</p>

<p>Yes.</p>

<p>"Don't know if you fit in this category, but there always seemed to be one or two folks like you in discussion classes, laying out their point of view as if it were gospel because it conformed to the elistist leftist views ever-present in academia, and talking down their noses to the rest of us as if we were hopelessly ignorant."</p>

<p>This is so far off the mark it's not even funny. Obviously, in this online setting I can't really show you what kind of person I am in real life, but that is absolutely not it. First off, I am not leftist at all. I would say my views are closer to libertarian than anything (although I wouldn't call myself a libertarian explicitly). I.e. I am socially liberal but fiscally conservative (that's an oversimplification though). Secondly, I don't actually say that much in seminar classes; mostly I just like to listen. I guarantee you wouldn't find me to be the a--hole you would like to believe I am.</p>

<p>"It is one thing to hold a particular viewpoint and believe it to be true. It is another entirely to believe that those who do not share your viewpoint or mindset do so out of ignorance or irrationality. Left, right or center, there is a word to describe those who feel that way. It is called arrogance."</p>

<p>I am only talking about one specific thing here: letting religion determine one's political views. I do consider that ignorant and irrational. And I say this as someone who has been around religion and Catholicism in particular for his whole life--I've been attending Catholic schools since pre-school, my whole family is Catholic, etc. I think that I've come to a good idea of what the strengths of religion are, and I'm sorry to say that determining public policy is not one of them. I could go more into why I think that, but to be honest in this post I'm more concerned with defending my character.</p>

<p>"For those concerned that their sons or daughters who are more traditional in their Catholic beliefs will be ostracized up at ND, I didn't say it in my day, nor does my son see it now."</p>

<p>Nor do I.</p>

<p>"By the way, nameless, do you find me to be unenlighted? Or simply irrational?"</p>

<p>I think that if you believe that condoms should not be distributed to prevent AIDS based on religious grounds, your viewpoint is irrational. As is any political viewpoint determined solely by religion. That's my whole point. That's all I'm saying.</p>