<p>Advantages such as?</p>
<p>Any advantage you think you get from philosophy, those same “advantages” can be gained in dozens of other majors.</p>
<p>Critical thinking, decision making, ect…those aren’t skills unique to philosophy, they can be obtained in nearly any major.</p>
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<p>You are correct that philosophy by itself doesn’t get you many jobs. But you then make a jump and spout nonsense - I don’t know why. </p>
<p>Philosophy, including the logic aspect to it, teaches a logical analysis skill which is simply not present in polisci. People who ace hard philosophy classes gain a very different analytical skill from someone majoring in most of the humanities - it’s not just about knowing how to read and write and decision-make. By nature, philosophy is a very analytical subject.</p>
<p>People should major in philosophy both for the enrichment and to enhance those skills.</p>
<p>They should also consider taking some other courses and gathering skills that are marketable, but this does not mean majoring in something else entirely, but rather selectively gathering marketable skills during college.</p>
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<p>Well if holy taco said so…</p>
<p>First, I never intended to make this a Philosophy V. Poli Sci debate, as I stated earlier, I just offered it as an alternative.</p>
<p>Secondly, the “logic aspect” of philosophy is complete present in Poli Sci. As I mentioned, a major component of Poli Sci is theory, which includes a broad range of political philosophy, social theory, and historical texts. As a Poli Sci major I read an assorment of texts from Machiavelli, Hobbes, Jefferson, Madison (Federalist Papers), Marx, John Stuart Mill (On Liberty), Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Kierkegaard, ect. Combined with a traditional Liberal Arts/Humanities curriculum (which included religion, psychology, and sociology courses) I feel Poli Sci provided me with MORE THAN ENOUGH “logic.”</p>
<p>And, I will add, that you are absolutely correct that this sort of education is enriching…however, as I previously stated - that and 99 cents will get you a cup of coffee.</p>
<p>If you are interested in an analytic subject, I suggest a major like Applied Intelligence (or one of its varients), or applied statistics, or competitive intelligence - those are 100% analytic majors that focus on analysis of data. Poli Sci is more of a blend of philosophy & applied intelligence - in general.</p>
<p>I knew that I wanted to either get into Federal Law Enforcement, Polic, or work as an Analyst. Poli Sci was good for ME, because the upper level course work allowed me to participate in data analysis, research methods, GIS systems, database collection, and report writing. I’m not saying anyone else should take it, however I will say it’s a more marketable degree then philosophy, which has no direct application.</p>
<p>Hey, when my son/daughter go to college I won’t let them take Poli Sci. I will push them to get a hard skill or at the very least Economics. If I could do it all over again, knowing what I know now - I’d be an engineer, one with an energy related focus (petroleum, mining). </p>
<p>Believe what you want about me, but the things I’m saying are from experience and “hindsite”, and honest concern. This is not a good economy, and people without a hard skill have no bargaining chip, no ace, no leverage. I started out as a philosophy major because I loved the topic, I loved getting to debate topics and spend time thinking about things that honestly mattered to me, but the real world is a mean mistress. There just isn’t a place for it. The private sector is motivated on results and philosophy doesn’t help meet those results. </p>
<p>I’m not trying to talk like a father, because I’m not that old (still in my 20’s), but I’ve experience enough of life to understand what tools you need to excel in the workforce. Back in my undergrad I thought employers would be dazzeled by my intellectual abilities, they weren’t, and they won’t be with you either. They want skills -period. </p>
<p>Right now you might be thinking you are doing something noble by majoring in philosophy, and perhaps you are, but it’s just not realistic. As a young kid that doesn’t matter because you haven’t been thrown out to the wolves yet, but wait - it will happen. Wait till you have a mortgage, two car payments, two kids in daycare, a 401K, credit, insurance, and a flooded basement. When you are in a situation like that, when you have a wife and kids that depend on you, you’re gonna wish you would have just bit the bullet and went to school for something that opened up opportunities and you didnt have to convince employers your worth.</p>
<p>Your statement that people should major in philosophy for the enrichment is complete naiviety. Bills aren’t paid with personal enrichment. A starving artist has personal enrichment, an investment banker has a roof over his head - which do you want? When you hold your first child for the first time, do you want personal enrichment, or the assurance that you have a marketable skill that will always provide for your family? </p>
<p>Personal enrichment doesn’t need to come from the classroom. In fact, if the only way you find personal enrichment is via school, then you are living a sad life. Personal enrichment comes from family, friends, hobbies, traveling, and taking advantage of opportunities. All the books you are reading in school are books you could read on your own time. As the previous link said, you don’t need to spend $20,000 on a philosophy degree - just $10 on a library card.</p>
<p>If you want personal enrichment, join the military, join the peace corp, be a volunteer to help the less fortunate. Those experience will give you more personal enrichment than any philosophy text, and it will also build character.</p>
<p>ugh,</p>
<p>You sir, are the one living a sad life. Forcing your kids not to take a specific major?</p>
<p>Just because things didn’t work out for you, doesn’t mean it won’t for others. You have a sad outlook on life in general and appear defeated in many of your other posts you’ve said. i.e. (from another thread)</p>
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<p>Obviously most people who take a philosophy major with your outlook will not get to their dreams… No one will.</p>
<p>BIGeastBEAST, you are arguing with the wrong guy if you’re arguing with me. I don’t claim personal enrichment has to come from the classroom - I claim people should major in philosophy for the enrichment it provides, as it’s ONE way of gaining enrichment.</p>
<p>I also don’t claim that someone who ONLY spends college on personal enrichment is going to be well off. I say it’s a good idea to major in philosophy if one seeks the sort of enrichment it provides, with the caveat that you should also expect get valuable skills outside of it, for instance by majoring in something else. You seem to fail to answer to this point every time. I think you should stop arguing with me and start arguing with those who don’t already see your point.</p>
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<p>When there’s a significant chance they will not work out, which is true, BIGeastBEAST is correct in raising a warning flag.</p>
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<p>It’s not the same, sir…I mentioned as well that a major component of Poli Sci is theory, but the departments don’t necessarily operate the same way. At my school, the philosophy essays tend to be graded harshly and there is a huge expectation to be analytical and recognize subtlety. Admittedly, I speak from the bias of my school, and at other schools the difference may be less noticeable.</p>
<p>But more importantly, philosophy includes LOGIC, as in formal logic, which is outside the scope of polisci. I would say someone majoring in philosophy who takes advantage of the logic courses is doing a good thing for themselves. </p>
<p>And last, of course there are different ways of getting logic training. Mathematics, my own major, is another way, and I would say probably in some regards a more solid exposure to reasoning under a formal logical system. But not everyone wants that training from the same source. </p>
<p>If I saw a philosophy major, I’d think that OK, this individual has had some good analytical experience, * now do they know some skills as well, acquired through other coursework, out of class involvements, or internships*, and if the answer were yes, this would be a good candidate for employment.</p>
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<p>If you read other posts I make on other forums, I am an advocate that majors in things like psychology should not think their majors are the end-all of enrichment, but should seek it in life experience as well. But that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t learn philosophy - only that it shouldn’t be the ONLY thing one learns…someone interested in it should consider it as PART of their training.</p>
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<p>Yes, and my point in arguing against your logic is that you seem to think someone majoring in philosophy can’t ALSO major in something else or take courses in other things that give them skills.</p>
<p>That’s why I don’t think your argument should read: “philosophy gives you no skills, try something else, like polisci, which gives you all the logical training of polisci and also practical skills” - rather, it should read: “don’t expect people to hire you for your deep thoughtful ability acquired through a philosophy major - being able to think is one piece of the puzzle, and you should acquire other skills if you really want to have a good survival chance.”</p>
<p>Xptyboy,</p>
<p>Excuse me for wanting to put my children on the right path in life. As a parent, I want to see my child to struggle as little as possible. I want them to learn the facts of life, make mistakes, learn from them and build character - but I’m not going to allow them to waste a very important time in their life majoring in a worthless degree that they will have to later repay and get squat on their investment.</p>
<p>I guess that makes me a sad person? </p>
<p>Also, I would love for you to explain “how things haven’t worked out for me.”</p>
<p>I’m in my mid 20’s, have my college degree, working on my MBA, have 5 years of professional experience in multiple environments, and I currently work in a position that is the EXACT job I set out to acquire while in college. So please, tell me how things haven’t worked out for me?</p>
<p>I have a family, a good credit score, a 401K, a 3 bedroom house that is appreciating, nieces and nephews that I love, god children, healthy parents, season tickets to pro sports teams, reliable cars, fun hobbies, and understand the realities of life far more than you do.</p>
<p>When you graduate, leave the nest and protection of your parents - then talk. Until then, you are just talking about things you don’t know about.</p>
<p>The reality is - sometimes life does suck. Sometimes you DO hate your job, regardless if you have the job you always wanted (which is my situation). I got the job I set out to get, achieved my goal, but hey - it’s life. Just like every other job out there, I have a boss that annoys, a department that makes no sense, traffic, neighbors who don’t cut their grass, credit companies who want to increase my rates, acts of god, D-Bag insurance carriers who don’t want to pay up, ect.</p>
<p>As far as my kids - shut your mouth. You don’t know jack. </p>
<p>I totally stand by my original statement - I won’t let my kids major in philosophy or poli sci. It’s called learning from our mistakes and trying to prevent our children from repeating them. Sure, poli sci worked out for me, but it may not have…I don’t want my kids in that position, no use gambling on their life. Instead, I will encourage them to pursue a usefull and financially rewarding career - that way they can properly provide for their children, and so on.</p>
<p>I’m not upset with you, because I understand you. A few years ago, I was just like you…a young undergrad with no responsibilities other than school. The world was mine for the taking. Well guess what…I graduated, like you will, and life becomes more complicated - just how it works. Instead of an analyst making $70,000 per year, I wish I would picked a major so I’d be making $200,000 per year. I wish I knew what the government was like before I pursued it as my career (hire crap, promote crap, professional stone-wallers), but hey - it’s life, keep moving forward.</p>
<p>What WOULD be sad is if I let my children make decisions that I knew where wrong for them, that would affect them long term.</p>
<p>^^ Since you have experience and have given it thought, what majors would you say are very worth it? What are some paths you would recommend? Other than engineering, which I am familiar with, but which generally requires very particular training.</p>
<p>Well, of course it depends on what you want to do…but I would major in anything that provides you a tangible skill.</p>
<p>Engineering, hard science (mathematics, biology, chemistry, physics), accounting, IT, Finance, pharma, and nursing (any medical field).</p>
<p>All of those above majors offer good job outlooks. My wife is a nurse and she could move anywhere in the US (probably the world) and find a job within a couple weeks. And although her salary is a bit stagnate, it’s still good. There are also programs like travel nursing that make VERY GOOD MONEY. </p>
<p>Pharma will give you about $100,000 walk-in, not bad! The hard sciences I mention give you many options, ranging from government, research, or business. Our country is severely depleted of science professionals (home grown ones).</p>
<p>IT is, and will be in high demand for the next few decades. You could take an IT degree and a few years of work experience and become a project manager. A project manager at a good company makes a great living and has lots of overlapping skills.</p>
<p>I’d definitly look at engineering. I think every male member of my family and my wifes family is some sort of engineer, and they all earned comfortable lives. An engineer with an MBA is VERY VERY VERY marketable.</p>
<p>As I stated I worked in the energy industry and all the “businessmen” where engineers, making crazy bank.</p>
<p>I’m not completely sure what a Math major does, but I’m sure there are options. The only math major I knew works as an actuary and does ok.</p>
<p>Coincidentally, philosophy is not only a study of analyzing and answering questions, but also a study of forming them.</p>
<p>Coincidentally, that doesn’t matter.</p>
<p>Taken from another thread.</p>
<p>[Jobs:</a> The Economy, Killing Liberal Arts Education? - Newsweek.com](<a href=“http://www.newsweek.com/id/235894]Jobs:”>Jobs: The Economy, Killing Liberal Arts Education?)</p>
<p>People should major in whatever they want. Nobody should be told what not to major in if they’re of college age. People who are liberal arts majors (well, most of them) understand that they are not learning a practical skill. They will have to market themselves with some more effort than the guys who majored in engineering, business administration, business economics, hard sciences, and the like. As I’ve mentioned before in this thread, I want to major in philosophy and I’m MOST LIKELY going to law school after undergrad. Even if I don’t, I hope to attain up to a year of co-op experience during my undergrad, performing a job that suits my interests. I’ll also minor in computer science and take business/economics courses as electives. If I decide against law school, or I just don’t happen to like it, at least I have a foundation to fall back on. </p>
<p>In other words, there’s ways to present yourself professionally as a philosophy major, and there’s ways as a practical major. The philosophy majors simply have a rougher time. So Bigeast, I’d venture to say that practical on the job experience (such as one year on co-op) is more important than the coursework and whatever you majored in, IF the job you’re applying to is related to the field you had your co-op in. Correct me if I’m wrong.</p>
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<p>Actually let’s talk about this, since you seem to be the one who doesn’t know jack, and thinking about this could help you out.
<p>I mean, I plan on having kids, but I’m not going to be a totalitarian father. </p>
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I meant in conjunction to how philosophy/polisci has not worked out for you.</p>
<p>But quite honestly your path of going from liberal arts major>job>MBA is quite typical and proves that having a liberal arts education (philosophy included) works out just fine. No one goes straight from undergrad to top MBA programs save a few exceptions. More liberal arts students are in Harvard business than business majors. All of them had good enough work experience to get into a top MBA program.</p>
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<p>Comparison of other majors to liberal arts: Accounting and finance majors can expect to make a bit more if not the same amount out of college. Bio and Chem majors I’m not sure about, but I do know a lot often go on to grad school and don’t start making money until later, so there is a trade off. The only people who start off with 6 figure salaries straight out of college from that list are the engineering and maths majors (who go into investment banking of which there are not a lot). This is all generally speaking… </p>
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<p>70,000/year puts anybody in the top 30% of American earners, not too shabby. 150,000+ puts them in the top 10%. And someone who starts out with 70k is likely to end up making 150k years later, the 150k+ guy will be making 300,000 later on too… But there is much less difference between 150k and 300k, than there is between 70k and 150k.</p>
<p>Finally, I don’t really see how that article you posted proves or disproves anything.</p>
<p>You can keep on thinking I’m too young to know what I’m talking about. I’m going to keep thinking you’re egocentric and sociocentric and also don’t know much of what you’re talking about. Anyways, good night I’m done with talking to you. But I sure hope you think about some of the things said and quit being so obtuse. (Also I’m starting to inquire whether you’re a really good ■■■■■)</p>
<p>Again, explain how poli sci hasn’t worked out for me?</p>
<p>Also, depending on where you live, $70,000 doesn’t go very far. </p>
<p>As far as my kids - again, mind your business. What you need to learn is that kids (teenagers) DONT know what’s best for them, because they don’t know anything about life. A job as a parent is to push them into directions that are good for them. If my children enjoy philosophy, they are more than welcome to take it as a minor or take those courses as electives - that’s pretty far.</p>
<p>You don’t need to major in something you love, that’s not what education is for. It’s to prepare you for your career, and I’m not letting my kids flush $100,000 down the toilet and have squat to show for it.</p>
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<p>I guess I should’ve rephrased and said that poli sci. has not worked out as well as it could have.
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<p>True, but firstly that’s all a matter of opinion but facts show that you this is actually quite a hefty amount for an individual to be making in his early twenties, and secondly no one can make such blanket statements as to say that with a certain major you can only get a certain job. Philosophy is not a vocational major, so you end up getting all types of jobs that offer different salaries, just like pretty much any other major including engineering, CS and maths. Surely you realize that not all engineers and investment bankers start out with +$100,000, it is actually very rare for anyone to start out with +$100,000 as only the top students from top schools get these jobs.</p>
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<p>Never said they know what’s best (although I implied it). What you’re saying is ridiculous though. If your kids want to take a certain major then they want a certain major. They should realize what their job prospects are and be happy with that, if they don’t then it is your job to let them know of the career prospects but not to force them into another career path. You definition of happiness is
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<p>Some of what you said might make sense if your assumptions about philosophy being a worthless major were true, but a philosophy major can get anyone a job. </p>
<p>Your research on philosophy as being a useless major comes from work experience and friends in your work force. But until you do some real research on what philosophy can offer as a major, you go
. You still have shown no facts that show how ‘‘useless’’ a philosophy (or liberal arts degree in general) is, whilst there is a multitude of evidence out there showing how a liberal arts degree can lead anyone to live a good lifestyle. The bottom line is that getting a college degree is much more important than what type of degree it is. Some job opportunities will be closed depending on what major you choose obviously (but a lot less than you’re suggesting), and that’s why you pick the major you want to choose as you are more likely to enjoy the work if you enjoy the major.</p>
<p>No one has ever said that a philosophy major will lead to a certain job, but there is a lot more available than just grad school>PHD>philosophy professor available, the list includes business, government, writing, media, law. Many philosophy majors are aware that their major is not vocational so they go on to grad school either straight out of college or after some work experience, this is because their critical thinking, analysis and writing skills are so good that they typically get some of the highest scores on grad school tests (after maths and physics), but these skills are also sought out by job recruiters straight of college, and they are also very competitive for some great positions.</p>
<p>[Goldman</a>, Sachs & Co. Recruiting Profile](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?) - shows how Goldman Sachs recruits as many liberal arts students than business students.</p>
<p>[The</a> Best and Worst Jobs in the U.S. - WSJ.com](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123119236117055127.html]The”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123119236117055127.html) - shows how philosophers are ranked in top 20 according to the WSJ</p>
<p>[Top</a> Liberal Arts Colleges By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-liberal-arts-colleges.asp]Top”>http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-liberal-arts-colleges.asp) Let’s compare top liberal arts schools to top engineering schools [Best</a> Engineering Colleges By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/best-engineering-colleges.asp]Best”>http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/best-engineering-colleges.asp) and ivy league school [Best</a> Ivy League Schools By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/ivy-league-schools.asp]Best”>http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/ivy-league-schools.asp) </p>
<p>[If</a> You Know You’ll Get An MBA…](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>
<p>[Class</a> of 2010 Profile - MBA Program](<a href=“http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mba/experience/classof10profile.php]Class”>http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mba/experience/classof10profile.php) - shows how Sloan’s MBA program has more liberal arts students than business students (once again). Also shows how engineering students are dominant there showing how you are not bound to get a job in a certain profession depending on your major.</p>
<p>Fact is, that what you make of the education you receive is up to you. Get decent grades, get good internships, know how to market yourself to prospective employers and you’ll do just fine even with a degree in ‘‘basket weaving’’.</p>
<p>So you can go send your kid to an engineering school against their will and hope that he will end up in the top percentile and start off immediately with $200,000, but if he doesn’t (very likely), then don’t be angry that you were wrong and put your kids in more misery than they ever deserved. You’d do well to realize that college is more than just preparing you for your next job. It is preparing you for life in general, you learn how to be independent, you get educated, you learn how to live with a roommate, you learn how to network, you learn how to spend money, and much more.</p>
<p>That list is complete crap.</p>
<p>It has “Philosopher” at 12, physicist at 13…and Nurse, a career with a huge outlook, good salary, and tremendous opportunities at 184, ranked before Nurse - was Painter at 183.</p>
<p>That might be the biggest joke I’ve ever seen.</p>
<p>BTW, your Goldman Sachs link never even mentions philosophy majors. Which is what we are debating, not every single Liberal Arts program.</p>
<p>Disqualify philosophy and you disqualify other majors in the liberal arts because philosophy IS a liberal arts major.</p>
<p>Anyone who wants to make their own opinion can go look through this thread and check out the statistical facts.</p>