<p>Is there a large difference between the class rigor of an Ivy / Stanford / MIT etc. versus that of a state flagship? Your peers are generally more accomplished at a higher ranked school, but what are the differences between the same course at different universities with regards to stress level?</p>
<p>Many state flagships ARE top ranked schools. UC Berkeley, UIUC, and many others. The difference in rigor between equivalent courses at MIT/Stanford/Ivy’s and UIUC/UC Berkeley etc. is going to be marginal at best. It’s not something that can really be summed up into a generalized statement. Courses like Harvard’s infamous Math 55 are incredibly rigorous, but that’s an introductory course for students who have already received a lot of exposure to calculus, differential equations, some linear algebra, proof writing, etc. UIUC and UC Berkeley don’t necessarily have a comparable course. But if we’re talking about upper division Real Analysis, partial differential equations, classical mechanics, electromagnetism etc…the difference in rigor is going to be fairly irrelevant. </p>
<p>Stanford and MIT have a better reputation for mathematics and the sciences, but I don’t think that could be used as reasoning to believe that a comparable course is going to be more rigorous compared to another school. UIUC and UC Berkeley are ranked -higher- than those schools in some areas…despite “only” being state schools. </p>
<p>I have taught at a variety of school ranging from an Ivy, highly rated LAC, less selective LAC, regional state college etc. My classroom “performance” is more or less the same at each but the readings assigned and amount/quality of work expected differs. And the level of student discussion reflects the preparation and reading associated with each level of school (speaking generally; there are always students whose individual performance is above or below the normative level).</p>
<p>I don’t find my classes at an Ivy much more difficult than my classes at state school. </p>
<p>For the majority of flagships the answer is a clear and unambiguous yes. When I took intro chemistry and physics at the University of Oklahoma, I regularly watched MIT OCW videos to help clarify any concepts. MIT’s professors almost always gave a far more complete answer about why a phenomenon was occurring than that those at OU. Where my professor would just allude to quantum physics or deriving a basic equation of momentum, those at MIT would how how various energy levels worked or demand that students fully appreciate how equations came about. </p>
<p>I also found papers which likely would have earned at best a B- at my previous school (an offshoot of Emory University) easily earned an A at OU. In one of the more extreme cases I took a senior level history class where the professor assigned a ten page midterm paper. Being the procrastinator that I am, I didn’t start it until 7 hours before the deadline, and submitted it without proofing the document. My professor still deemed it strong enough to be used as an example for future students who wanted to know how to get an A. </p>
<p>Your course selection probably makes a big difference. For example, Harvard’s entry level math courses range from Math M (a slow paced frosh calculus course, like high school calculus AB) to Math 55 (a famously difficult honors math course).</p>
<p>You are likely to find more of the harder honors courses at more selective schools, even if the regular versions are broadly similar. But on a course by course basis, you would need someone knowledgeable about the subject to review the course materials, assignments, and tests to see how they compare. @bernie12 has done such a comparison for some courses, described in several posts in this thread like <a href=“Schools that are considered to be on Ivy League level for undergrad? - #3 by bernie12 - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums”>Schools that are considered to be on Ivy League level for undergrad? - #3 by bernie12 - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums; and <a href=“Schools that are considered to be on Ivy League level for undergrad? - #18 by bernie12 - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums”>Schools that are considered to be on Ivy League level for undergrad? - #18 by bernie12 - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums; .</p>
<p>This is very interesting to me. I’m going to be attending the University of Pittsburgh next year as a freshmen. I’m majoring in Bioengineering and probably will take Honor College courses. I would have had a good shot at an Ivy league or top private university if I had applied, but I feel like Pitt is the better choice for me. I just want to be challenged by professors who know their stuff and know how to teach it well - I want to learn a lot, not sail through with easy A’s.</p>
<p>I go to The University of Texas at Austin which you may or may not consider a top school depending on opinion (it’s the best public school in our state). A study was done on campus interviewing many students and the amount of time they spend outside of class doing work for class (homework/studying) and then recording their college. The liberal arts majors spent 8 hours per week on average doing either homework or studying. The Natural Science and Business students (two separate colleges) both averaged 21 hours per week. The engineering students averaged 26. So, at least for my school, the rigor depends severely on the major.</p>
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<p>Interesting… business usually comes up as a low workload major in other surveys. For example:
<a href=“Why College Students Leave the Engineering Track - The New York Times”>Why College Students Leave the Engineering Track - The New York Times;
<p>In addition, this MIT survey found relatively low workload for course 21 (management/business):
<a href=“http://tech.mit.edu/V132/N59/pressure/breakdown/course/index.htm”>http://tech.mit.edu/V132/N59/pressure/breakdown/course/index.htm</a> (click “Work”, then “How many hours per week…”)
The MIT survey has the finding (under “Self Image”) that under 50% of students consider themselves above average at the school or in their majors.</p>
<p>Many state schools have honors programs that put all the top students together, and push them harder than in a normal class. </p>
<p>Most of the students in my State U honors program went to grad school at the Ivies or Stanford, or MIT. Nobody found the grad schools difficult after the preparation we had received in our undergrad. </p>
<p>^^ Well I think that significantly depends on the school and the difficulty/type of courses that students are expected to take at the school. At my school for instance, business students are required to obtain a certain GPA and if majoring in a business related field, has a block schedule (compared with other majors) that require many collaborative projects with other students outside of class. At other schools, such as Penn, Wharton or Stern the business schools are known to be plenty rigorous but other schools they have relatively average workloads.</p>
<p>But for the most part, I do believe there are harder and more rigorous schools, but sometimes it has little to do with ranking. Reed for example, is known for it’s difficult and more time consuming academics, but it is not necessarily in the so-called “top 10 LACs” list. On the other hand, UChicago, which is often ranked in the top 10 national universities is almost equally as difficult but with a lower selectivity rate.</p>
<p>My current school, William and Mary, is relatively well known for it’s rigorous academics (ranked in the top 30s or so) but from my experiences so far it has largely to do with self initiative how you manage your time. It also matters how you choose your courses and professors. One of my friends in a course has (according to him) almost 4-5 hours of homework each night, but another friend with the a different teacher but same course has a much less demanding workload barely cracking an hour a night. People here are all very smart and the professors generally teach up to that standard, but just like high school, not all courses and professors are created equal so it depends on the context of the school and courses in which you are comparing.</p>
<p>One thing I have noticed is class time. Where I teach, a not top-ranked state school, they have 3 hours per week and recitation is part of those 3 hours for freshman classes. This ends up severely limiting discussion time. The Ivy I went to had credits based only on lecture (or lab); recitations were extra time, so that professors had time to discuss topics in more detail.</p>
<p>The education vis a vis from the teacher may be just as good, but some kids cannot cope with having half the class “not into college”, not prepared, messing around (sometimes I have to have a TA in my classes to yell at students to be quiet), and generally doing things that would get them sent to the principal’s office in HS. No one DARED act up when I was an undergrad. Even if people would mock on a professor, they would make sure to do the readings and the homework, and prepare as much as possible.</p>
<p>I don’t know about state flagships, but all colleges are definitely not equal in the rigor department. Going to a small school in Oklahoma for high school, I took colleges classes to make up for my school offering no AP courses. I don’t know about math and science, but for me at least the difference in what was expected in freshmen writing was crazy. In my composition classes that I took in high school, I could barely try and get a high A on a paper, at the ivy I attend now, I would work my butt off and hopefully get a B+. Also, I’ve noticed a lot more reading, discussing, and annoyingly intellectual stuff in my classes at Dartmouth. I think the rigor question depends on the kind of student your are. I’m a produce facts, get it done. learn the primary objective and move on kind of person and not a “lets discuss this deeply” kind of person, which has made the LAC setting incredibly challenging for me, but for others, they can have an easier time.</p>