How Smart Is AP?

Parents Forum
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<p>My kids attend a well regarded, large urban high school that does not offer much in the way AP classes. They offer AP Calc AB and BC, French, Spanish, and Computer Science. Essentially, the English, history, and science people do not want to be tied into the AP curriculum. Often our students do take the AP exams without taking the class and many do very well. </p>

<p>I disagree with ANovice that schools that offer credit for 4/5 scores are "mediocre". It would be silly for someone who scored a 5 on the Calc. BC exam to have to retake calc. If they understand it enough to get a 5, they should be ready to take the next level in college.</p>

<p>However, I do think that many classes, especially science classes offer a very different experience at the college level than at the high school level and this is one reason schools don't want students skipping those classes. While math classes are pretty standard from class to class, intro science, history and English classes are all over the map. </p>

<p>Schools can offer challenging curriculum without offering AP classes. But it takes time and willingness to develop the curriculum and a willingness by adcoms at high level colleges to accept these classes as being both challenging and college prepartory.</p>

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<p>sorry vronwe, guess I was reading too fast. My daughter, who is a sophmore in college chided me just last week for not making her take more AP's. I didn't because she had told me it would be too hard and by the end of the summer before her junior year, it was too late to get in because of the required reading. The other reason many kids don't do AP euro in 11th grade is because honors english 11 has a summer reading requirement of 9 books and 11 books is just too many for most kids.</p>

<p>I like the idea of AP classes because it's at least a taste of a college class and having one less class to pay for in college is great!</p>

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<p>I think AP classes actually get an "easy" rep they don't diserve. Take AP Lang and Comp. at my school: We have weekly timed writings that are graded on the AP scale. We are tested on books before the teacher ever lectures on them and are expected to have an in-depth analysis of the novel as well as a crystal clear memory for quotes. Last grading peroid, one of the teacher gave out no A's, and the other only gave out a couple-and they were hard earned ones!</p>

<p>Another example:
AP World History requires students to read the entire college level text and then take mind-numbing difficult quizzes (If a student put "Agricultural Revolution" and not "Agricultural Revolutions" the answer was incorrect.). Only one student in the history of the class has ever gotten above an F on the first test, and essay grading is done on the literal translation of the AP scare (5=50, 7=70, etc.) A college-level research paper is required. The class is heavily curved, but if it wasn't I honestly believe very few students would pass.</p>

<p>Even the traditional "slacker APs," such as AP Psychology require extensive work. In the case of AP Psych, this means a massive research project aligned with all APA guidelines-not easy.</p>

<p>Yes, I know this is ancedontal, but it shows, at least at my school, APs are HARD.</p>

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<p>Has anyone seen a difference between AP and IB programs and their success if any? Have started a thread on "comments on IB programs."</p>

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<p>AP-MEH is much easier than AP_USH</p>

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<p>The more I read about the much higher rated (than our) secondary schools many of your kids go to with all these AP classes, the more I am thinking that what WE have which is not many AP classes is almost more challenging or at least more prepartory for college. Our schools has HONORS classes and these are definitely very challenging courses. Recently the senior level HONORS courses were given an AP designation though they do NOT teach to the tests at all. The HONORS courses might advise you to take the AP test but they also do not teach to these. </p>

<p>The descriptions I am reading about of AP courses some of you take that involve lots of memorization, worksheets, and textbooks and lack of papers is NOT what my kids' challenging courses are like. Here, they usually read from primary sources , not as much from textbooks, though those supplement the readings. The kids must write papers frequently and these are analytical in nature. There are also larger research papers that also are comparative and not straight forward. I would liken the reading and papers to the nature of what the type of work is like in college. I never see worksheets and there are not tons of tests or quizzes. There are some but even these involve essay questions. Now that my oldest is a freshman at Brown, she says the work is extremely challenging in her courses but she feels prepared and can handle it and has gotten excellent grades on her college papers to date. </p>

<p>So, we may not have tons of AP courses here or even the few that we have are not geared to the test (not counting math now), I almost prefer the type of learning they have had to do in our "mediocre" school. Both my kids will readily tell you that the hardest courses in our high school are truly challenging and a LOT of work.</p>

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<p>"For the most part the classes that you can opt out of because of AP credit are useless anyway so I personally don't see why it matters."
Anove also says schools that take AP 4/5's are "mediocre schools."</p>

<p>I disagree with Anovice here. My kids and my sister's kids have gotten AP credit at schools that are in the top ten (colleges and universities) with 4/5 on the test, and it was well worth it. The courses opted out of were not useless, but were prerequisites. For example, there was an awesome environmental economics class my niece took, which required Ec 101 as a prereq, but she had the credit from AP Ec. All three kids were able to skip the required 100s level literature classes and go right into 200s level. And why waste time on Intro to Psych if you want to take something interesting like neuropsychology when AP Psych is a painless way to get out of it? I could go on and on - son got to skip a required Bio 100s-level bio course, nephew who doesn't want to take any math used an AP Calc score to meet one of his distribution requirments, etc.</p>

<p>Hardly useless!</p>

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<p>This is a thread where you can see that there is no uniform way to teach an AP class. If you read all the posts, Sue, you should have seen that Ilcapo was the only one that talked about ditto sheets. Many, many teachers are guilty of teaching to the test - not just AP teachers. Just because there is a nationally standardized test at the end doesn't mean that the teaching is standardized. My son is having a hard time with this (AP euro) class because it's making him think and coming to his own conclusions instead of just memorizing facts.</p>

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<p>At Smith, in virtually all cases, they won't give you credit or advanced standing for APs, even for 5s. The ones I know about, specifically: in music theory, they give you a placement test. In French, they give you a placement test. In chemistry, they have a special section of first-year chemistry for students who scored either 750 and above on the SAT II or a 5 on the AP, where they explore more advanced subjects, but in the context of first-year chem. In biology, with a 5, they MIGHT place you out of one term, with a petition, after meeting with the head of the department. Latin, the same.</p>

<p>The only time you MIGHT be given credit for an AP is if you failed another subject, and you need the credits to graduate (it is very, very rare). While there are no distributional requirements, they will not allow the use of APs for "Latin Honors" (which has distributional requirements) either.</p>

<p>Now, the problem really is that many students are ready for college-level work at 13-14. Leon Botstein has proven that with Bard's program for non-gifted but smart teenagers who attend normal NYC high schools. My d. (who was probably exceptional) started taking college science classes (include pre-med/pre-engineering chemistry) at 2- and 4-year colleges at 13, having never taken the high school ones. Frankly, I think most of the AP business reflects the reality that many of the kids shouldn't be in high school at all, and it is a desperate attempt to keep them engaged. They'd be learning a lot more (and be better prepared for college) if they were out in the community, or the world, with internships, and mentorships, and travel.</p>

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<p>Or maybe there is so much teaching to the test that kids don't really know how to learn. This AP been my son's wake up call. The first two years of high school in his social studies class all he was required to do was memorize dates, places and events. However, his honors english is no slam dunk and neither is honors physics or German 4 or pre-calc. My son is just your avg. smart kid but there is no way he's ready for college yet. I'm not trying to be rude, really, it's a compliment, but I think many parents on this board have very bright over achieving kids. I think my son represents most kids, smart but getting by with JUST what's required for an A or B. </p>

<p>What's the percentage of students that go to ivy league schools? AP's are maybe not for those kids. They're for kids like mine who will go to great schools that have a 1200 avg. SAT and who will take a 4 on an AP test. Our school does have a program that allows a small percentage of students to take classes at Lehigh, DeSales, Muhlenberg or Moravian if they have the grades and can work it in their schedule.</p>

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<p>You misread me, I think. I think it is wonderful that kids - ALL kids -- be given challenging, exciting work to do in school. (Please note, however, that Botstein's program in New York is precisely for teens like yours, and is explicitly NOT for gifted kids.) The question however, is whether APs are the best way to ensure challenging, exciting work.</p>

<p>I have grave doubts.</p>

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<p>i take all ap classes this year. they're so easy it's crazy. i never do homework and get high a's.</p>

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<p>I find that the more kids in a certain AP class, the slower and the more dumbed-down it is.</p>

<p>For example, they crunched me with two AP history courses this year: APUSH and AP World History. </p>

<p>APUSH is sorry. The number of kids enrolled in the course is around 70. It's very easy to get an "A" (I have nearly a 100% and I barely comprehend the material), no matter what your test grades are. The teacher lectures from the book, we read the book, do worksheets by the book, and outline the book. The book is basically our APUSH Bible, Qu'ran, Sharia, Torah, etc.</p>

<p>Now, AP World History is brilliant. I didn't sign up for this class and already did World History Honors in 9th grade. My counselor said it was the first time it was being taught at my school, so I decided to take a chance. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! There are a grand total of 9 students taking it, and I love it. Our grades are based primarily on few research papers and major tests/quizzes. My teacher lectures brilliantly, and the entire class is captivated. You will never ever see anyone daydreaming (even the TA, who's nearly failing, listens in rapture). The course is very rigorous and extremely intensive. I worked my butt off in there and managed a "B." I rarely get Bs, but I was darn proud of it.</p>

<p>The most important thing: history is my weak subject and least favorite subject normally, but World History is now my favorite class. I guess it depends on class size and the quality of the teacher. I love the diversity of the class. It's not western civ.; it's the history of the world! We learn about Mongolian stirrups, Bantu tribes, Cincinnatus, etc... it's all fascinating how it affects the world.</p>

<p>My AP English class is very difficult (and English is my strength). The average is a very low "C" and no one has an "A" in my class. There are about 40 kids enrolled, but they're split into two classes. The teacher constantly pushes us and teaches outside the boundaries of the AP test.</p>

<p>AP Calc is alright. It's what a calc class is supposed to be, I guess.</p>

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<p>Oh my I can not re-iterate the need to SCREEN for classes...all types of classes!</p>

<p>I personally should never have been allowed in AP Calculus AB - I dropped after the 5th day because I realized I was becoming one of those kids that I hate, who slow down the class beyond repair and force the rest of the kids into cramming at the end of the year. I also should not have been allowed in AP Chemistry, but there were no science courses left for me, so I needed one.</p>

<p>For the majority of the kids at my HS though, the AP system appears very corrupt. As opposed to the "weighting" of courses balancing out the lower grade, it instead boosts kids averages above and beyond all the other students. Basically, if a kid thinks he can get above a 90 in a course that is weighted, they will take it - regardless of how interesting they find the material - because it will then equal a 100 (10 pt weight).</p>

<p>Their are multiple sections of AP courses such as US History and the majority of kids at my school cannot break a 600 on their SAT II US History AFTER the exam. I think that the SAT II US History is a better indication than the AP Exam as the questions are harder and the curve is tougher. </p>

<p>I think it all works out fine, however, if the high school profile includes the number of students who recieved each score. This proves just how "tough" the course might have been for the students...for example if a student with a 95 got a 3 and a student with a 90 got a 5, then there is a problem with the AP system at that school.</p>

<p>Essentially, there is no universal way of teaching an AP Course, and this is why we have a universal AP Exam.</p>

<p>Go for college courses....they are more interesting. :)</p>