<p>
[quote]
...Some parents are concerned that college officials will not perceive the advanced topics courses district officials are planning as the equivalent of AP. They also worry that the advanced topics classes will not prepare students for the AP tests, putting stress on students who would have to take extra preparation classes.</p>
<p>"The AP designation provides an easy means for college admissions officials to compare the grades of our students with other students," said Jill Rosell, a mother of a 10th-grader. She resigned in January in protest as president of the Parent Teacher Council over the change. "We also feel it provides a level of accountability to have The College Board approve these courses."...
<p>doesn't anyone find it creepy that a small group, the collegeboard, has control of most high school courses and that those courses are cookie cutter?</p>
<p>In my son's HS, AP's are offered but I had the impression that some faculty as well as students found the content a bit confining and formulaic. In recent years, they have introduced addtional semester-long "college seminars" in history, English and arts courses. Terrific idea for those interested. AP's are still available with no plans for dropping them, though.</p>
<p>I think a great teacher can make an AP class a great experience. My son has taken 4 (English Lit, French, US Gov and Calculus). Three of them have been rich and rewarding experiences. In fairness, he only took the Calc because he felt he had to in order to have a shot at the colleges he was interested in. Not his favorite subject.</p>
<p>It might be a stretch to call the AP classes "cookie cutter." I know that the APUSH at the high school my wife teaches at is a very different course from the APUSH taught at my D's school. My D's friend's father teaches APUSH at a third school and has a very different approach from those taken at wife and D's schools. In some cases instructors teach to the test. Some spend enormous amounts of time with test prep, while others don't begin preparing for the test until a week or two before the exam. I know that the CB is conducting an audit to improve the lack of consistency in how AP courses are taught, but based on a lifetime's experience with the NYS regents exams I am skeptical of the outcome.</p>
<p>At least in my anecdotal experience, some of the parents who want to remove AP courses come across as those who feel that "if MY kids can't hack it, I want to take it away so NOBODY can have it," though of course they have better-sounding, high-minded rationalizations to go with that.</p>
<p>On the Scarsdale AP debate, the following two linked reports are of interest:</p>
<p>
[quote]
College admissions officers tell us that theyre looking for students with distinctive abilities and backgrounds. The uniqueness of the SATP designation will set Scarsdale applicants apart from the thousands of others who carry the AP label. It will enhance their candidacies in an increasingly competitive environment.</p>
<p>... theres a growing recognition in Scarsdale that we can move beyond the current curriculum to one that deepens student understanding and more effectively prepares young people with skills they will need in college. Given this proposed program focus and the fact that AP exams will be optional in the future, it would be inappropriate to describe courses as AP.</p>
<p>....the new courses will nonetheless be compatible with the AP tests, allowing students to prepare for the exams if they wish....
<p>Very interesting to me, as a parent who is currently going through a mini-crisis with the APs. My older daughter, who is a junior in college, took a lot of APs throughout high school and didn't get stressed out by them (and actually got almost a year's worth of college credit.) </p>
<p>My 10th grade has been taking AP Euro this year, and has been totally, completely, thoroughly, stressed by it. I can't emphasize how stressed, but she refused to drop the course (all her friends were in it, was afraid it would hurt her standing with colleges.) On the morning of the AP exam, she just refused to go to school and take the test. I've been thinking about the APs a lot lately as a result, and wondering what to do about her schedule for next year, as she signed up for three APs. (on her own)</p>
<p>Susanna, I can relate to your 10th grade D's stress and anxiety over the Euro AP exam. Some kids break out into hives at the mere mention of "AP exam". My S was in a similar situation last year but he did take the test. He is at a high school that does not offer AP classes. This year he signed up for two more AP exams, on his own, and is actually enjoying the whole process and learning a great deal, I might add. It is truly remarkable what changes a year can bring so take heart. You might like the following report by the professional staff at Scarsdale because it addresses in more detail the plan to abandon the AP label with Advanced Topics Program courses at a high school named by the United States Department of Education as “one of the 144 exemplary schools to which others may look for patterns of success” ... located in "one of the most highly competitive communities in one of the most highly competitive areas of the country. .." </p>
<p>2007-08 School Year: Implementation of the Advanced Topics Program
Social Studies, Art, and English</p>
<p>2008-09 School Year: Implementation of the Advanced Topics Program
Mathematics, Science, Performing Arts, Foreign Language, and Health</p>
<p>I feel sorry for any parent so caught up in panic over a label that she can't see the forest for the trees. She and fellow parents should be seeing this as a Win for their kids. Um, the point is, half of the battle in admissions is Getting Noticed in a sea of sameness. (But no, this parent wants to be <em>more</em> same.) Who CARES if it's "easier" for the colleges to compare grades? Actually, some would argue it's not easier to compare one A in APUSH with another A in APUSH, unless some of the School Profile content reforms I and a few others have suggested also occur (with class syllabus submissions). Unless the schools provide differentiating information that identify the kind of info hudsonvalley just gave us, comparing 2 AP grades gives them not much information, since barely distinguishable AP transcripts & scores are submitted by the thousands to colleges.</p>
<p>In the different 'era' of my h.s.years, AP's were rare. At my private rigorous high school, exactly one was offered. Not only was it "considered" college level, it <em>was</em> college level. It was taught by an instructor at the affiliated 4-yr college of that h.s; she doubled as a teacher at the h.s. It was college curriculum, with college standards. And you did earn college credit. So when an AP was on a transcript, a college sat up & took notice. (Not unlike a h.s.senior today who lists impressive comm. college courses on a college app.)</p>
<p>In my previous high school (a still-now-prominent high-rent public) I was fortunate enough to be in what I guess would be called an Advanced track. The labels of the courses were Advanced (like the Scarsdale plan), with the content matching. Never once did I observe my fellow students bored, tuned-out in those classes. Intellectual rigor & challenge defined them, but without the frenzy of much of today's "AP" focus, which is sometimes more quantity centered than anything else. Since the teachers created the courses and the standards, each course was unique.</p>
<p>The one exception I will take to the Scarsdale plan is that, as I understand it, it will first experiment with Art. So that means AP Studio Art as currently known will not exist at Scarsdale High? If so, i.m.o. that's unfortunate. This is the kind of course that would be difficult to complete outside of a supervised, mentored class, with studio access. And, unlike the rest of the AP curriculum, the student products are variously unique, with the course being a valuable opportunity for any art student: portfolio-review on a national-recognition level. (A recent CC poster's work is currently on the collegeboard site). The AP review gives an art student important visibility when applying to art schools. And the class curriculum itself, even without the collegeboard review, is a chance to produce enough of a portfolio in time for National Portfolio Days. I hope that Scarsdale will at least offer its art students the equivalent in an Advanced Portfolio class, covering the same material.</p>
<p>Y'all should check up on colleges to see who's dropped giving credit for AP; you'll be a bit surprised. So it no longer holds that taking AP saves a semester, or even a single class later on. D#1 scored a 4 on an AP history, got only 3 credits at Rutgers (and it took them 18 months to decide on the credit).</p>
<p>NJ_mother, most students I know take AP's for these reasons: more challenge than a non-AP (particularly if an Honors version is not available);better transcript profile for college admission; GPA weight enhancement (can be esp. imp. for competitive public colleges). Even the AP Exam, while in some cases a semester- or year- college course equivalency, seems more focused on a tool to validate the student's mastery (for purpose of admissions) than to bypass college units. A very large number of completed AP's will sometimes earn "advanced standing" at the college of choice, but so far all that has offered D and her college classmates, is the offer of graduating one semester early. (It does not reduce her distribution requirements, despite the high scores earned in those exams.)</p>
<p>I agree that the protesters are being a little naive. On the whole, this feels like an old-money/new-money dispute to me. Schools like Andover and Exeter -- and certainly Scarsdale High or Stuyvesant -- don't need the external validation offered by programs like AP or IB to get The Colleges That Matter to respect their students. They have a long track record and a lot of engagement. School districts formed to service the inhabitants of McMansions that used to be dairy farms five years ago need the external validation, as do struggling urban districts and striving parochial schools. Scarsdale is making a statement that it has more in common with the elite private schools than with your garden-variety suburban public high.</p>
<p>As far as elite-level college admissions is concerned, that's probably a good move. Scarsdale's own brand is stronger than the AP brand, and I don't doubt that it will deliver really high quality courses (including dynamite studio art with first-rate reviewers). I wonder, however, whether "working class" students heading to the SUNYs will be hurt by this, not in the admissions process, but later, as they confront a bureaucratic structure where economically-important credits depend on the AP or IB brands. This isn't an issue at Harvard, which will surely treat its annual cohort from Scarsdale fairly, but I can see a SUNY saying "No 'AP', no credit."</p>
<p>But it seems that students will be able to take AP exams, which are the only thing that matter for college credit. It may be different for admission, however, if adcoms downgrade an application that does not contain the AP designation even if the student has taken the most challenging curriculum and the school profile explains what that curriculum is.</p>
<p>At Boston University Academy, one of the top ranked private schools in the Boston area, students do not take AP courses. Juniors and seniors are encouraged to take classes at BU. But they also take AP exams and apparently do very well on those.</p>
<p>JHS, I find your perspective sobering. It rings true.</p>
<p>Frankly, at this time I have a strong bias against AP, unless a student feels that he/she is really going to enjoy it and if the teacher has a track record of engaging the class. I agree that a high school with a strong reputation among college admissions officials isn't going to be downgraded because of minimal AP offerings. Lake Jr's. district includes a public high school with a national reputation, i.e. most parents there don't bother with nearby prep schools and academies, even if private tuition wouldn't be a burden. I see no need to push Jr. into AP courses.</p>