So…what math is he taking this year without advanced geometry? When will he take the real ACT? Is he taking the PSAT in October?
@thumper1 Currently in Advanced Algebra II. Likely going to take trig/pre-calc this summer at local college.
ACT in Feb. Nothing before then as it will be a waste of time until he learns that geometry. ACT retake late next summer.
Has he taken the PLAN?
According to the ACT website plane geometry is 20-25% of the math score; trig is 5-10%. I just checked the curriculum map for my s’ high school. Plane analytical geometry is covered in the trig/pre Calc class and algebra 2 is a prerequisite for that class. So just flagging the issue for consideration - is your student performing poorly on a higher level of geometry that is usually taught in trigonometry after the completion of algebra 2?
@goldensrock According to ACT, Coordinate Geometry (15-20%) & Plane Geometry (20-25%) total nearly 45% of the entire math test, i.e. 16 points. He is missing half of the questions from these two content areas, i.e. an immediate 8 point slide in math sub score.
A lot of people keep bringing up the rest of the non-Advanced must be bombing the ACT too. Well, yes, and they are the minority of the school. And “bombing” means different things to different families. Many non-honors families may be content with a college-ready 21-25 on the ACT, which is more than enough for admission to directional U’s and many regional private colleges.
Is this kiddo a very strong math student? If so, why wasn’t he enrolled in the advanced course last year?
@cpamum, I was thinking that the school may consider the regular math class and the advanced math class to be the same class, so taking both is taking the same class twice, not taking two consecutive classes as in your example of Psych then AP Psych. I don’t know that they are thinking that, but you are asking for reasons why the counselor is pushing back. It is just one possibility.
Do you want to tease out why the counselor is pushing back or do you want your son to fill in the gaps as quickly as possible in his math prep? You seem to want the former. As a parent who has seen lots of different wacky stuff in HS I’d go for the latter and leave the issue of the counselor’s motivations, thoughts and feelings to the next parent to walk through the door.
Don’t dismiss an online tutorial until your son tries one and tells you he can’t concentrate. Don’t dismiss a tutor until you find out how convenient and easy it could be (do you have a neighbor who is an engineer, an architect, or even a HS math teacher who’d agree to a few tutoring sessions in exchange for some other barter deal?) You are pushing back on all of us when we make suggestions- I think geometry is an easy thing to get tutored in since the content is relatively well defined and your son is otherwise good at math.
How can we help you here?
@blossom I figured knowing her and/or the school’s motivations would help me approach her from a more measured angle. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if she said no simply because nobody has done this before … even though it really is exactly like students who take the redundant route of psych -> AP psych.
There are some guidance counselors who believe it is their job to advocate for their students. There are others who believe it is their job to keep the wheels of the bureaucracy rolling with minimal squeaks and noise. Without knowing your guidance counselor it is very hard to give you advice.
One of my kids had a math teacher whose MO was always to “come out swinging” in battling the administration. If your son has had a teacher like that- maybe he/she can intervene?
It seems to me that it would matter critically whether Geo and Advanced Geo or considered the same course or not. You’ve said the school does not consider Psych + Advanced Psych the same course, but whether that is relevant to the question of Geo + Advanced Geo is a curricular one. Do you know in detail the curriculum for the courses? And, as one simple question – can one take Advanced Psych without taking Psych first? If one cannot, the psych course sequence is different from the geo sequence (even though they share a similar set of confusing adjectives).
My presumption would be that the counselor believes the two math courses to be the same course, and students are not allowed to retake the same course in a curriculum (unless they failed).
Agree with others that the school may not be willing to give credit for a regular and honors version of what they consider to be the same course. If 70% of the material is the same, that makes a lot of sense. The honors class probably does more difficult problems on many of the same concepts.
The first thing you should do is sit down and go through all the problems he got wrong. I don’t care how the subject area was labeled. Find out why he got them wrong. Did he never learn the material needed to answer the question? Or did he simply forget it over the summer? Or did he know the material but was just unable to answer the question? Or did he run short on time and get flustered?
You also need to reconsider your presumption that just because he got an A in a geometry class, not even an honors level one, he should be able to correctly answer all the questions on the ACT. How many kids get A’s in their high school math classes? Now, how many of them get perfect ACT or SAT scores? They’ve all seen the material, they all got A’s but most of them are going to miss quite a few questions. Answering all questions correctly is a lot harder than getting an A in a class. From what you’ve said, he does not appear to be a very strong math student–taking only regular geometry as a sophomore, and most of the kids at his school are in the more advanced class. Maybe the real issue is that grading in his geometry class was pretty inflated and he just didn’t master the material that well or isn’t that good/fast at answering this type of math question. How have his math standardized test scores been in the past? Does his ACT percentile match up to them, or is it way lower?
be VERY CAREFUL when pushing back against your child’s HS Counselor. This can come back and bite you later on…
That person is the one who has to write the all important letter of recommendation for your child to colleges .
Push too hard and she may not be as willing to sing your child’s praise when he/she needs it most.
sorry you are having problems; we too went through similar things. we audited and got tutoring; both were good moves.
my DS (college freshman now) took geometry in 8th; and calc AP AB his jr. yr.
We begged the school to let him take AP BC his sr. yr. We had to fight the school to get that done. It ended up they let him take it; but the class did not count towards graduation requirements, nor his GPA; and his class rank dropped. they considered that the same class; but let him take it.
my daughter took geometry in 8th too. On her ACT tests (2 of them) her lowest scores were in geometry; we think she did not remember it. We ordered the tests and answers, found out exactly what she missed, hired a math high school teacher to go over those few sections – and her ACT math score rose 5 points.
Maybe you should ask the counselor to have a math teacher (head of the department) in a meeting with you to ask what you should do to have the material covered. The counselor is telling you that 30% of the math is not covered in general geometry, but the math teacher may not believe that (or may be surprised and need to go over curriculum with his dept.) If the GC says no, contact a math teacher yourself for a suggestion of what to do.
Self-studying and self-teaching are not synonymous. Did you follow the link? Thinkwell is far more similar to taking an online class than self-teaching. There are lectures followed by assignments. Burger has the reputation of being a great lecturer.
I would fine a way to accomodate a tutor, or find an online course, or get permission to audit, or take advantage of peer tutoring, etc. – anything EXCEPT taking another geometry (advanced) officially.
I would not want a geometry class appearing twice on his HS transcript. How do you explain that one; it would look bad and weird and suspicious.
I also would not pi** off the counselor. She will play a key role in his college applications. And don’t think you can fix a bad relationship by asking for a different counselor. They are probably all friends, and he will waive his right to see what they submit to colleges about him. Payback is a you-know-what.
I get that you are angry and I would be too, but you need to give up trying to figure out why she’s pushing back. Who cares-even if you could find out, what would you do about it? Raise an enormous fuss and get your kid blackballed? Fix the problem at hand with the excellent suggestions you have been given, and if you feel obliged to fix this problem at the school for future kids, arrange a polite, friendly and civil meeting with the principal or a member of the school board.
Edit: I am not suggesting you go to the principal/school board about the counselor’s intransigence; I am suggesting that you address the insufficiencies in the curriculum for the regular geometry class, if you feel compelled to perform that civic duty. Leave the counselor out of it.
The OP says that the GC stated “the Advanced Geometry section he was not in covers 30-40% more material(!)” But this does not mean that the regular section didn’t cover the usual material for a geometry course. It seems to me that the OP and many other posters are leaping to the conclusion that the regular course didn’t cover the material of a standard geometry class. My take on this is that the honors class covered additional topics or went more in depth with more difficult assignments, not that the GC was saying that regular geometry is only 2/3 of a course. That’s the usual difference. In the case of geometry, I would guess that the honors classes spent a lot more time on proofs.
Can you get a copy of the texts used in both classes and a curriculum showing which chapters were covered if not the entire book? Can you identify specific large gaps which would be filled by the other course? I suspect that the GC has a lot less idea than you imagine about exactly what is being taught in these classes and that was an off-the-cuff remark, not a detailed comparison of the course contents. It seems a waste of time to press to put your child in the honors course on the basis of this probably uninformed remark.
Would there be an appropriate course available at the community college, even to audit? If he can’t take it audit there is no requirement to report the grade to the school, is there? You just want the information - not credit or a grade.
Have you looked at what’s available at edx.org or even Khan Academy? Took a quick look - the geometry offerings look basic but you may want to check.
Many colleges offer on-line courses - another place to look to pick off that one advanced geometry class that you want.
MIT open courseware - http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/index.htm.
Keep in mind you need that guidance counselor to write recommendations and fill out forms later. And in my experience school officials WILL hold it against your child - if they perceive you are a “trouble-making” parent.