How to get a Full-Ride Scholarship at a California Law School?

Graduate School Law School
1

Hi,

What statistics are needed to get a full-ride scholarship at a California Law School?
I see many people on here talk about law schools in the northeast or other regions, but I’m only interested in California schools.

There are 21 ABA-accredited schools in California. I saw that there are state-accredited (but not ABA) approved schools, but they pass the bar in far, far fewer rates, and settling for a cheaper, 4 year school, but not pass the bar, seems like a waste of time…

With a 3.8 undergrad GPA, what LSAT would be needed to obtain one?
This is my undergrad GPA, but I’ve been studying for the LSAT a little. I will estimate my LSAT right now is low, which I know is the most important part of law school applications, but I am getting better at the questions with some study with PowerScore and old prep tests.

I go to a CSU school, and this is my 3rd year, though I have years until a bachelors since I was a different major before (I was pre-nursing, did get accepted into a RN school, but things happened which makes me leave the entire medical field as a choice, disillusionment I guess, so I thought law would be good). Since medical is in my background, I was thinking Health Law, personal injury, negligence, malpractice ect cases. Or even family law. But there’s also corporate and transactions which is interesting. I’d rather be in a private practice setting, since most of the lawyers I’ve talked to had their own practices independently, and it seems appealing.

All the ABA-accredited schools in California seem expensive, as in $40K plus per year in tuition. The non-accredited can be between $2k-$11k, but then 4 years and not pass the bar seems like a waste and not a smart choice. There are high ranking schools like Berkley, USC, UCLA, UCD, and UCHastings in Cali, but then it’s very pricey per year and difficult to get into without a good LSAT score, but there are better job prospects and passage of the bar. Which of these 21 schools give out scholarships and to what statistics? I’d rather not go into substantial debt if it is possible, even if it is a lesser ranked school, though everyone seems to think the rankings are extremely vital to employment. $150,000 of debt (e.g., UC Davis) is substantial if it’s possible I’ll be starting at $50K a year when starting out.

Thanks for the advice,
C

2

7 U. of San Francisco CA $33,870
8 Loyola Law School CA $36,058
9 Southwestern Univ. CA $33,410
10 U. of the Pacific (McGeorge) CA $34,474
11 U. of California (Hastings) CA $35,345
12 Santa Clara University CA $47,070
13 Stanford University CA $39,916
14 U. of Southern California CA $42,640
15 Pepperdine University CA $35,520
16 U. of San Diego CA $37,704
17 Golden Gate University CA $32,940
18 Thomas Jefferson CA $31,770
19 Whittier Law School CA $31,750
20 U. of California-Berkeley CA $39,141
21 Western State University CA $29,770
22 U. of California-Davis CA $37,734
23 California Western CA $34,300
24 U. of California-Los Angeles CA $37,648
25 Chapman University CA $34,250

As you can see, CA law schools which are ABA accredited average about $30K per year. This equals to $90,000~ for 3 years.

**This are old Statistics and most are around $40K or $50K now, which is about $130-$150K for a law degree.

I have to stay in CA… I cannot go O-O-S to a cheaper school… Also it’s to pass the CA bar exam.

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  1. Why do you have to stay in Cali? Plenty of people go to school outside CA and then work inside it. People like me, for instance.
  2. Have you taken any practice LSATs, and if so what have your scores been?
  3. Why do you want to be a lawyer? You talk about a pretty big range of practice which makes me worry that you don't have first-hand experience. Have you interned/externed/worked for any law office?
4

You do not have to go to law school in California to pass the California bar exam. It’s one of the more difficult bar exams, but you can go to law school almost anywhere and be as prepared to take it as someone who goes to law school in California.

I would knock off the lowest-ranked schools from your list, even if you have a free ride.

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I didnt think the law schools gave out scholarship monies. The job prospects are not good at this time. This is per my sister and her corporate law office.

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@aunt bea: Law schools do give out scholarship money, but for merit and not need. They essentially buy top scores to boost their rankings.

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Instead of just looking up low school prices, do twice as much investigation of outcomes. After all, even to go into business for yourself you will need some experience and mentoring somewhere to begin.

California law schools graduated 5,064 students in 2013, which outnumbered the 4,098 jobs taken in the state. That led to some dismal placement numbers for schools. In fact, Southern California placed last among 20 regions, with only 58 percent of graduates from the region’s 13 schools landing jobs. Northern California placed 15th with a 66 percent placement rate.
http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/best-legal-job-markets-new-grads

8

A lot of “Top 14 law” grads want to live in California, so a lot of the jobs were taken by people who didn’t go to a California law school.

If you want a full ride (which is probably really only possible at lower ranked schools) get a 168 LSAT+ (around 97th percentile) and 3.7+ and see where you can get in for free. You’d have no shot at biglaw, but since you’re debt free you can look into public interest or maybe local government work.

Going for free at a crappy law school isn’t a terrible idea, since it’d just be 3 years of opportunity cost lost, in my opinion. You will be locked out at all biglaw firms, and probably most clerkships, but there are other places that may hire you. And if you don’t get a law job in the end, it’s not the end of the world since you’d have no debt.

Law school/any school is much better than working (in my opinion), so I am okay with the idea of going to school for free for a few years to not face the real world. School is fun and relatively chill in comparison to working as a professional.

9

Also, as an aside, UCD and UC Hastings are not good law schools with awful job prospects.

Even UCLA/USC have questionable job prospects now, although historically they are considered good schools.

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Although I haven’t worked for a lawyer or in a firm, most of the lawyers I’ve talked to/had experience with (except for the public defender - not a criminal case one, but medical type) have small independent law firms, i.e., they’re self-employed. I’m guessing with Health Law and Corporate Law, which I also find interesting, they would likely need larger firms/corporations and not necessarily small business, self-employed lawyers. I keep my options for specialties open so I have larger employment prospects…

Through experience with the small business/firm lawyers, I’d rather have my own private practice and start up my own law firm. I.e., be self-employed. I think with medical malpractice/negligence, personal injury, and family law I could have a small law firm started, but corporate and health law likely requires being hired by BigLaw or corporate law. I actually didn’t know what BigLaw was until I started researching, so it isn’t my goal. I was thinking I could graduate with little or no debt (I know of an O-O-S law school which could get $20-40K debt w/o scholarships, but I’d rather not move there if I could get scholarships in CA which would lower or make the debt nearly 0. I don’t want to live anywhere or work anywhere aside from CA).
Then I could team up with a classmate (can’t do that if O-O-S), or run ads for an associate and we could partner up to start our own law firm. It could start out as just a small office, then could grow larger if successful. I/We’d be starting up almost like our own small business/firm to get clients. I.e., self-employed and then hire staff if needed. I’m hoping law school will provide skills to do this.

If starting salary is about 50K (or even lower, who knows?), since starting small businesses is difficult and a firm is like one, you can see why it’s needed that I have almost 0 or low debt.

When talking to these lawyers or looking for lawyers for various reasons (never criminal), I’ve never once asked where they’ve gone to school and I don’t think any of them went to “big 14 schools.” It doesn’t come up and mostly it’s about how many cases they’ve won, their experience, or how hard they work and their interest. I’ve found them through advertizements on billboards, online, referral services, yellow pages, ect. The names of schools must matter more for larger firms upon graduation. Though that is also a good job choice, I guess I’ve always imagined working at a small firm and self-employed. Though skills are needed likely to start one, with a partner to help who is also new, the new firm/private practice/business could run smoother. Public interest law is also interesting.

So you can see why the name or ranking of the school is not as important to me as is obtaining scholarships and/or graduating with no or little debt if possible due to my career goals.
I’d rather do that in CA. I think I can improve my LSAT score with practice and study. It’s not impossible.

11

Re: Your initial question about stats and merit aid: There is a wealth of current information at www.lawschoolnumbers.com It’s a site where applicants plug in their GPA and LSAT numbers, and then record where they were accepted, WL’d, or denied, and scholarship info. It’s all self-reported so take it all with a grain of salt, and only a small sample of all applicants, but it will give you some idea of what merit aid is being offered this year to students with certain stats. You can also select a different application cycle to compare. You can search law schools by name. Check it out.

12

@BeachyLaw: Law school most assuredly will not provide you any of the skills you need to open your own firm. Most people get through law school without ever even seeing a docket, much less learning what goes in it. Law school teaches you the theory of law, not the practice. That is a fairly major problem when trying to go solo right out of law school and one of the reasons most who attempt, fail. If you want to start a business, there are better ways to go about it than law school. If you want to go solo, most spend a few years at another firm first, to learn the actual practice of law.

You are wise, however, to keep your debt at as close to 0 as possible. That can only be accomplished if you live with your parents, since law schools may waive your tuition but won’t provide money for living expenses. If you really can do that, and if you’re set on going solo, your goal is to go to school in the location you want to practice. You’ll want to spend every second you can externing/interning at small firms to gain as much knowledge as possible.

As for the people you’ve spoken to, you’re right that once you’re established where you went to school doesn’t matter much. However, when you’re trying to become established school matters a lot. Doors open for UCLA that don’t for Southwestern. It’s also a far different market than existed when most of the established attorneys went to school. The law market boomed before 2007 when it did an abrupt nose dive. Now, we graduate twice as many law students as there is demand for lawyers. The strategies that worked for solos before do not work anymore.

13

I did go to lawschoolnumbers.com, but I couldn’t find where you can compare Merit Scholarships to the law schools entered. Where is that?

Since some people suggested that I could still pass the bar exam even if I go O-O-S (that is what I am most worried about… going O-O-S then coming back to Cali and discovering I am not prepared for the CA bar, but instead to the state bar of that school). I don’t want to accumulate debt, then discover I cannot pass the bar! Bar passage rate for CA ABA schools is 60-70% avg and I’m guessing they teach specifically for the CA bar.

However, I could save sometimes $70,000 (about half of $130-$150,000 avg over-all debt of CA $40-50K In-State tuition) or even 3/4 overall debt ( w/ about $40K-$50K total debt, by becoming in-state after 1L year or even lower overall debt if I qualify for 100% in-state - i.e., moving ahead of time w/ 100% certainty of admittance then waiting to apply), saving about $100K overall in debt… and those totals of debt is w/o scholarships or grants which it looks like some of these schools also give out (Best Values List, tuition lists, ect)… There are some universities I’ve found which could give me low amounts of debt. Even their O-O-S costs are lower than the In-State costs of CA law school tuition!

I’m not sure if I can achieve 168+ on the LSAT.
The GPA of 3.7+ is guaranteed.
(I know I can get A’s for the next 2-3 years and keep a 3.8… I can’t get a 3.9 though by looking at GPA calcs. The highest I could get it even with straight A’s is 3.84). I have about 79 transferable units, and 87 nontransferable units.

I can live with my mom which would eliminate living costs. I’m going to be doing that for the next 2-3 years anyhow to graduate w/ an undergrad degree w/ no student loan debt (since I was pre-nursing, I was thinking of going Political Science: Legal Studies, which also gives a paralegal certificate, for the next 2-3 years to get a BA and to also get acquainted with legal classes, although they are nothing like law school). I know she’d only move with me to certain states (warmer or more western region/closer or more familiar/like CA culturally… i.e., not upper midwest, south, southeast, and likely not northeast since is too difficult bc it’s both too far and too cold). Then move back to Cali… which is great trouble for her, but I might be able to convince her to do it depending on where it is.

It’s easiest to stay in CA for networking, less moving, and location. I’d stay if it’s possible to get a scholarship which would reduce tuition to 10K-20ishK per year or less. That’s cutting the avg tuition by 20-40K per year. There are many law schools in Cali (21 vs some states only have 1), but they are all expensive…

If I need to work first to get skills for a private practice, I can do that, but the goal is to open my own firm with a partner and/or solo. I.e., Last Name & Associates or Last Name & Last Name, LLP. Opening a new legal office is difficult, therefore, the lowest amount of debt is best. Actually, low debt seems the best any way I look at it.

The Law School websites often don’t seem up-front or clear about how to get scholarships, how much they are, and how much it can reduce tuition over 3 years. It seems like they want people to email/call them to ask since it isn’t clear on their sites. Also, their sites mention conditional scholarships bc the ABA requires them to, but how much are they for, what are their conditions, and how are they obtained?

Do you think, in general, anything above 75th percentile would amount to most of the tuition paid for?
If I am above the 75th percentile for GPA, but between the 25th and 75th for LSAT, would I still have the ability to get Merit Scholarships and/or other aid? I.e., high GPA, median LSAT (LSAT is the hardest hurdle for me right now and requires study ;/). Some schools I might be able to have a higher LSAT if I study enough and/or apply.

14

BeachyLaw, again, any reputable law school teaches the law in general, and not even really the law you need for the bar exam of any state, and certainly not the law you’d need to run your own practice.

You learn the law you need to pass the bar exam by taking a Bar/Bri or other bar review class after graduation and before taking the bar exam.

You learn the law you need to actually be a lawyer only once you’re actually working, and you learn it best by working for someone who’s sharp.

Where you go to law school does nothing for passing the bar or for opening your own practice.

You could take a lot of clinical classes/programs when you’re in law school and learn something practical that way, but it wouldn’t really prepare you either.

15

Since employment isn’t guaranteed, it’s then most important to graduate with as little debt as possible, or if possible, no debt.

"Topic Tested on California Bar Exam
Business Associations

Civil Procedure

Community Property

Constitutional Law

Contracts

Criminal Law and Procedure

Evidence

Professional Responsibility

Real Property

Remedies

Torts

Trusts

Uniform Commercial Code Articles 1 & 2 and those provisions of Article 9 concerning Fixtures

Wills and Succession

Related Courses(s) at USC Law

Business Organizations; Partnerships & LLCs
Procedure I
Community Property
Constitutional Law I; Constitutional Law II
Contracts
Criminal Law; Criminal Procedure
Evidence
Legal Profession
Property
Remedies
Torts I
Gifts, Wills and Trusts
Contracts; Sales; Secured Transactions
Gifts, Wills and Trusts"
http://weblaw.usc.edu/why/academics/bar/subjectsTested.cfm

Some classes do help, but I also see there is a Bar/Bri review course which people take.

I’ve looked at some California law school websites for scholarships, but the most clear one has been from Thomas Jefferson, which people say on the internet is a bad school. On it’s matrix it shows:
"Merit Scholarship Matrix - Fall 2015
Full-Time Award Amount

UGPA

LSAT 3.5+

158+ $44,000

153-157 $44,000"

http://www.tjsl.edu/admissions/scholarships

I would need a 153+ LSAT to get nearly full ride (tuition is about $44K per year) at this school supposedly from their website.

How can I get a gpa/lsat “matrix” for other CA schools?? There are 21 in CA and ones which are better than Thomas Jefferson… I’m afraid if I decided to go there, that although free, it has a terrible name on it and would ruin job prospects.
*I haven’t asked anyone about this school, just from what I’ve read on the internet.

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And be wary of scholarships that ask you to maintain, after 1L, a significantly higher GPA than 2.0 for renewal… you have to be aware that law school classes are curved. Then again, they are most commonly encountered at law schools ranked below ~40 or so.

Oftentimes you won’t know the conditions of keeping these scholarships until the actual award letter arrives.

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BeachyLaw, it doesn’t matter that USC teaches the same general topics as on the bar exam. Most all reputable law schools do. The content of those classes isn’t “teaching to the test”. USC is a national law school and it teaches the theory behind the law, the development of the law, etc., but not necessarily what the bar exam requires. Listen to us: again, it doesn’t matter whether or not you go to law school in California or not, and what reputable law schools teach you is not particularly helpful in taking the bar exam or opening your own practice.

18

It’s good to know that I can basically go anywhere.

Do you think, in general, if GPA and LSAT are above the 75th percentile for a school’s admittance, that it’s nearly a guaranteed full ride? Some of these sites, like the scholarships for USF law school: http://www.usfca.edu/law/scholarships/ … lists many scholarships, but won’t be up front about how much they are worth or the average applicant who obtains them via gpa/lsat/e.c./disadvantage wise. Would they say the average scholarship given out if contacted?? I noticed many law school sites are vague like this. It seems to me my strategy is to choose 1) law schools in CA which will give full or nearly full ride by gpa or lsat rankings and/or 2) law schools outside CA which are cheaper, but also give out scholarships and grants. It sounds like to me people are saying I need to apply to the schools before I find out how much will be offered? It seems there should be easier ways of finding out so I can plan accordingly.

If I can graduate without debt and it be paid for, the prospects of there not being a job waiting for me or easily obtainable is reasonable since I would owe little or nothing, but still have the JD and able to be employed in the future.

19

Starting “salary” for an independent fresh out of law school is zero. Think about that for a long while.

20

Based off what is said, I’d probably would want to work for a firm before starting a solo to gain enough experience…

I have difficulty paying $5k-$7k in debt from credit cards (still no student loans, thankfully). With some of those schools, they’d require a $3k income min to pay a $150K debt from law school.

I’m low income, first generation. Nobody is paying for school and there’s no fall-back plan except for other careers. Law is my 2nd choice (1st was medical). I get calls from ambulance collectors… I couldn’t imagine calls for student loans of that large.

At least there is 1 school which I could probably go to for free if I score well on the LSAT. Rankings don’t matter to me… location and costs are the first and most important. If it doesn’t work, I have fall-back plans…