<p>Ibanking is one of the most prestigious and high paying entry level jobs in Finance. With that being said, it’s a great way for students to get rid of their debt and learn a great work ethic. It also has quite a few exit opportunities that are very sought after in finance.(PE VC HF)</p>
<p>It may be comforting? to believe that investment banks are a “risk averse” choice. Whatever. The interview breaks down at the end when the writer notes that its risk averse as compared to starting your own business. Indeed it is, but if that is the standard, then every activity other than “founder” is risk averse. :)</p>
1 Like
<p>I definitely felt and saw the effects of preprofessionalism at Penn. It is almost frustrating as it seems that because of their insecurity, a lot of preprofessional students look down on students who actually want to pursue their intellectual interests. And honestly doing this doesn’t have to include going hiking in South America to “find yourself” like many people think.</p>
<p>My closest friends and I will be starting PhD programs in the fall (in fields like math, physics, chemistry, and neuroscience). People might think this is not as practical as going into banking or med school, but it seems that a lot of people are unaware that PhD programs PAY. My top three choices all offered more than $30,000 as a base with more money added for fellowships at two. Although I want to go into academia, PhDs in my field are very employable in other areas. Some may work for places like Intel.</p>
<p>@stmarys14 </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>@nickxx</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Some of you should read this thread: <a href=“Ivy League =?= Ivy League Career Potential/Experience? - Parents Forum - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1648235-ivy-league-ivy-league-career-potential-experience.html</a></p>
<p>This guy with a 2.8GPA from a state school ended up doing better than a lot of his Ivy League peers. He didn’t even go into medicine, law, or finance, but he walked out of undergrad with zero debt and easily snagged a well paying job in a low cost of living metro area. He had/has a pretty good plan and created a niche for himself. It seems like he’s making more, working less, and enjoying his life at the same time.</p>
<p>The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong…but that is the way to bet. :)</p>
<p>
@kkuo, This is one of his key advantages because a very high percentage of STEM majors (esp. those from an oversea college and then graduated from a US graduate school) are not able to compete against him. He is likely aware that he has this advantage very well.</p>
<p>One of the interns who used to work for a short time in our company said that his telephone interview with some similar defense related company is so easy. He said he had barely learned a specific subject at school; however, during the interview, his wife helped him look up some formula from the textbook as the interviewer asked the questions on the other end of the call. The interviewer was “impressed” that he remembered the formula so well and he got the job. Maybe after a few years of experiences in the defense contract company, he may be experienced enough to get a job in the private industry.</p>
<p>If all young lawyers need the security clearance by the government, they will be in a much better shape in the job market. In a sense , the physicians do better than lawyers in general (as of today) because their association traditionally protected them slightly better than lawyers’ association in politics, I think. But this situation can be changed any day by politicians.</p>
<p>I feel like people are drawing so many false dichotomies - like finance/banking is the only alternative to</p>
<p>1) going to law/med school
2) going to a academic grad school
3) being a bum in your parents’ basement
4) teaching sailing in Myrtle Beach or tending bar in Colorado</p>
<p>This isn’t the point that Roose is making at all. I feel like that point is being missed. Read these key statements.</p>
<p>*That let them attract not just hardcore econ majors but people majoring in other subjects who had a passing interest in finance and didn’t know what else to do.</p>
<p>People now think going to a bank for two years will help prepare them for the next thing and keep them from having to make these hard decisions about the rest of their life.</p>
<p>The lesson of that is you don’t have to pay people a ton of money to come to your program after college if what you’re giving them still offers prestige and structure and the sense that they’re not signing up for something forever.*</p>
<p>Nobody is saying that finance and banking is a terrible option. Nobody is saying that no kids should go work in finance or banking after they graduate from college. But Roose followed these kids for a few years, I believe, to write his book and observed a general sense of malaise, frustration, even misery among them. They work really long hours and are very stressed out. Sure, they are paid well, but they often live in very expensive cities so the pay evens out.</p>
<p>But that’s besides the point. The main point he’s trying to make is that these college grads select finance/banking not because they are interested in it despite it being stressful, but because for many of them it’s an option they don’t have to think too hard about.</p>
<p>1) Most college students at elite schools are aware of very few professions when they enter college. And unless they’ve been very proactive, by the end of their junior year, they may still only be familiar with very few professions. A lot of them realize that they still don’t know what they want to do with their lives. And they panic a little, not realizing that’s completely normal and okay, and that we can fix that. As Roose mentions, a 2-3 year finance gig fixes that problem.</p>
<p>2) Many students at elite schools feel the pressure to do something prestigious after college, because that’s what (they perceive) their peers are doing. They’re going off to Stanford Med and Harvard Law, working for Google and Apple and Merrill Lynch or whatever. At least in the perception of the student. And so sometimes the ones who really don’t know what to do find finance appealing because…it’s right there, it’s respected, it’s something everyone at their school and in their general sphere of influence has heard of.</p>
<p>3) Roose also mentions the structure and guidance that finance gives, and there’s something to this. I remember coming upon the precipice of graduating, and having worked with upper-class students for the last couple years, I have seen it in progress from the other side. I am always highly amused by the look of panic and fear I get when I ask students (ESPECIALLY second-semester juniors) what they plan on doing after college. (I have to admit that I sometimes ask the question knowing that’s the reaction I am going to get. I’m going to the bad place in a handbasket, lol.) The big wide world of work seems so confusing and open. How the heck does it work? What is it like having to work through the entire freaking summer? Oh lord, I have to pay rent and go to the bank and draft memos like an adult?</p>
<p>A job that is a structured opportunity that eases you into adulthood seems very appealing, especially for the ones who need more structure or haven’t quite figured it out yet. TFA is a good example - you apply for the program much like you apply for college; they give you summer training, find you the job, and, ostensibly, ease you into the job. (Although, as some of my alumni who have done TFA told me - the support largely ends after that.) And many finance and banking programs for new grads are perceived that way. A lot of the banks and firms brag that they have a structure - a rotation program, mentorship, a clear promotion structure. Don’t get me wrong; those are good things. But they are also very appealing to students who don’t yet know how the adult world works and are a little afraid to find out.</p>
<p>4) And finally, it’s the commitment. Most students know that these low-level analyst positions are 2-3 years tops, same thing with TFA and consulting. And I think that’s another part of why they are so appealing. You don’t feel like you are committing to something long-term; it’s like, I’ll do this for a while and then figure out my life. I don’t think a lot of students realize that you can ALSO do that with regular jobs, that nobody is expecting you to pledge your life to your first job - or even that you can change careers in baby steps if you hate your first job.</p>
<p>It’s not that finance is a bad option; it’s precisely that many students view it as their only viable option aside from grad school or bumming it in mom and dad’s basement, when really there are thousands of careers out there that they can do that’s not banking, not bartending, and don’t require grad educations.</p>
1 Like
<p>Juillet- good analysis, but you’re missing a key component when you say that students view it as their only viable option. These jobs are competitive (I know it’s fashionable on CC to assume that any moron can get a job at Credit Suisse or UBS). For a large number of kids coming out of these colleges, banking as an option is off the table because they don’t have the stats to even get their resume read. The banks require a transcript, a GPA which varies by institution but is at least in the top half or third of the class, and a demonstration of some quantitative ability. A not-insignificant number of kids learn quickly that they need to find one of the thousands of careers out there that they can do that’s not banking because guess what- they ain’t getting hired by a bank.</p>
1 Like
<p>juillet: please do provide us some good examples of other jobs out there that these smart elite school grads can get. My kids and I spend hours pouring over job ads from online sites and campus career office sites. Frankly, I didn’t see that much variety for American kids with a bachelor’s (and parents with no important connections.) Part of the problem is that, with the exception of Penn, the elite schools are not pre-professional. Yes, there were business jobs available in the fields of accounting and marketing, but given that the other Ivies and Stanford don’t offer majors in accounting or marketing, or even majors in finance for that matter (just economics), these kids lack the specific professional skills they need for those positions. Even if they do have the skills or could learn them very quickly, they won’t get an interview due to the resume screening process that sorts for certain majors and wants experience in specific skills like producing balance statements. And many business jobs require strong quantitative skills like statistics, experience with computer stat programs etc. that not everyone has, despite being very smart. There are also computer science jobs available. I wish my bright kids had the aptitude to major in CS, but alas. So those jobs are also out for most elite school generalists, even econ majors. Forgot the English and history and classics and French lit majors. There were some social media jobs, but they almost always wanted journalism majors–another major not offered at the elites. An English or history major who has kept a blog or worked on the school newspaper might have some luck for those. How well they pay, I don’t know, but I’m thinking not that great. </p>
<p>Let’s see. There were some non-profit jobs too. However, many kids including mine aren’t wealthy and have student loans to pay off, so they couldn’t have accepted the majority of them (had they even gotten an offer, which they didn’t) since they require you to live in high-rent areas like DC or NYC and only pay a pittance. In addition, there are far more of these for liberal causes than conservative ones, so that eliminated many for my right-wing kids. They went to top schools, had good grades and excellent work experiences, both had a practical major, and they still had a really, really tough time finding a job. They went on scores of interviews, did tests and various assessment projects for companies, and even made it to the second and third rounds. But then nothing. Blossom is correct. The finance and banking jobs are not easy to obtain. But thank God for finance and banking, or my kids would be on the couch.</p>
<p>Furthermore, it’s not as though everyone can just go to grad school for free. My kids’ friends are great students and are indeed paying, and through the nose, for grad school. We have no money to subsidize grad school, so that was not a good option in our case. </p>
1 Like
<p>In past years (perhaps too long ago to remember), some of the accounting firms ran programs for bright liberal arts students (read Ivy-types) who were interested in accounting but lacked accounting degrees. I’m not sure that is the case any more.</p>
<p>It does seem that, as time marches on, every “profession” (teaching, accounting, engineering) becomes more obsessed with “certifications” which causes the practitioners to become more insular and less well-rounded. Maybe this is necessary, but I’m not convinced. A lot of it looks to me like “jobs programs” for the certifiers, and barriers to entry to prevent migration of smart people to fields where they are needed. Oh well. </p>
<p>^ I agree. There seems to be a lot more rigidity as far as required qualifications than in the past. </p>
1 Like
<p>Yea, pretty much everyone I know works in finance, consulting, academia, education, medicine, or in CS. This includes both my friends and my parents’ friends. I’m not being sarcastic either.</p>
1 Like
<p>Of D’s high school friends (college class of '14) whose parents I’ve run into:
Creative writing major at Sarah Lawrence: no job yet, getting certified to teach yoga
Education major at a PA state college: no job, trying to find a nanny position for summer at least
Graphic design major at a MD state univ.: no job, will work part-time as a waitress
Graphic design major at NJ state school: no job yet
Business major at a NJ state school: no job yet
Business/supply chain majors–3 kids, 2 from Lehigh, 1 from Penn State --all have jobs. Thinking of this major for my youngest
Wharton grad: finance job in VA</p>
1 Like
<p>
</p>
<p>I think that this is a fundamental structural change in many industries.</p>
<p>CS used to be the same - you only needed to have the basic skills and then you would learn a lot on the job about the specific language and tools the company used. But with outsourcing, the high number of students in CS, students who were programming since they were 10, increased efficiency based on technology, automated testing, etc. etc., the bar has been substantially raised for the new hire and the entry training programs are an unnecessary expense.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I don’t see that it will change and go back to how it was, unless there is a massive supply/demand imbalance.</p>
1 Like
<p>"Yea, pretty much everyone I know works in finance, consulting, academia, education, medicine, or in CS. "</p>
<p>It never occurs to anyone that people who work in finance finance the activities of people who make, provide and sell actual goods and services? It never occurs to anyone that people who work in consulting consult to people who make, provide and sell actual goods and services? It never occurs to anyone to think about a job at Target’s or Macy’s corporate headquarters, or to work for Proctor & Gamble or Unilever or (insert an actual company that makes actual things instead of just moves money around)? </p>
<p>What do you mean by “just” moving money around?</p>
<p>If money doesn’t move around, there is no economy.</p>
<p>And if there aren’t actual goods and services being produced that offer value to consumers, there is no economy either.</p>
<p>CC is just plain clueless and oblivious when it comes to recognizing these kinds of jobs. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Law is an example where one used to be able to get a law degree without previously getting a bachelor’s degree. Then it became a post-bachelor’s professional degree. Now only a law degree from an elite law school, or a top regional law school for lawyer jobs in the region, will do.</p>
<p>Accounting seems to be increasing the college course prerequisites for the CPA exam these days (to five years’ worth of college courses).</p>
<p>Engineering, however, seems to be holding the line at keeping it a four year bachelor’s degree program in most cases, despite calls from outside of engineering that it should be made into a post-bachelor’s professional degree like law or medicine.</p>
<p>But note that liberal arts are not exempt from pushing the minimum standards of entry out. Three hundred or so years ago, calculus was a new discovery in mathematics. Now, it is a common subject taught to college frosh or high school seniors. This is an example of where pushing the frontiers of knowledge out raises the minimum standards of entry. CS is another obvious example of this phenomenon. But one can probably find many examples from various subjects where a new discovery or innovation from a few decades ago (that may have earned the discoverer or innovator accolades, or at least a PhD degree or tenure) is now common knowledge among college undergraduates studying the subject.</p>
<p>However, it likely is the case that some of the increased minimum standards of entry exist to protect incumbent practitioners from new entrants.</p>
<p>“Yea, pretty much everyone I know works in finance, consulting, academia, education, medicine, or in CS. This includes both my friends and my parents’ friends.”</p>
<p>I recognize you may not actually know anyone who works at a department store or grocery store or drugstore or big-box store, but it didn’t ever occur to you that there are hundreds, maybe thousands of companies, that work to provide the goods and services that make their way into that store and hence into your home? Whether it’s the companies that make clothing, food, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, etc. – the companies “behind” those companies (who make the cardboard packaging or the jars or the machines needed to run these products) – the trucking companies who are getting the goods from the factories to the distribution centers to the stores – the companies who make the fixtures in the stores on which the goods are displayed – and of course the retail centers themselves and the real estate companies who manage their properties and the waste management companies that dispose of their waste – I mean, really, seriously, it never occurs to anyone that these are real jobs (and can be lucrative too)? </p>
<p>This is why I lose patience with people who think there is nothing to business outside of finance / banking. </p>
<p>More real jobs- hospitality industry- hotels, restaurants, car rental, etc. This is one sector of the economy where “credentials creep” really hasn’t taken hold. The big chains hire thousands of new grads for roles as various as marketing, operations, finance, yield management, real estate development, etc. I cannot fathom why every unemployed new grad I mention this to turns up his/her nose. It’s not like they’re hiring you into a management training program so you can learn how to change a tire (car rental) or make a hospital corner (hotel) but believe me, nobody becomes a senior executive at one of these companies without spending time and understanding how the business operates and makes money.</p>
<p>I don’t think rejecting the non-profit sector out of hand is a smart strategy either. And not all the jobs are in DC or NY. A public television station is a great place to launch a career in broadcasting/entertainment. A hospital is a great place to launch a career in PR or Public Affairs (think of every change in regulations at either the state or federal level impacting reimbursements…there’s a team at every large hospital in the country tracking that legislation). Some of these jobs pay less than similar roles in the corporate sector (but often better benefits) and sometimes they pay comparably- especially if a kid is willing to move to St Louis or Houston.</p>
<p>Consumer products as Pizza has noted above. Any engineered product-- an aircraft engine, a solar battery, a turbine, has a marketing team, a PR team, an HR team behind it. You don’t need to be an engineer to work for Sikorsky in their comp and benefits department. You will be DEALING with engineers- so some facility with technical language helps, but you don’t need a degree in HR (and for some companies it’s a definite turn off). Sociology, Psychology and Theater are great majors for HR.</p>