<p>
[quote]
They're going because they hate risk and are terrified about what to do next and Wall Street has figured out a way to calm their anxieties.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I just started Young Money and it’s a really interesting book.</p>
<p>I actually work at/attend (as a grad student) an Ivy League university and I’ve worked with undergrads, and this is one of the things I’ve always been really fascinated with and wondered about. “Everyone” here seems to be either pre-med or determined to go into finance or banking. And like the article says, most of them aren’t economics majors - I worked with a lot of psychology majors preparing to go into finance. I teach statistics and a lot of students came into the lab in spring semester wanting to learn Excel before going off to the Street.</p>
<p>I think this article sheds a lot of light on it. I personally wondered whether it had something to do with the recession. When I went to college (before the recession) I feel like there wasn’t as much impetus to select a “practical” major and go into a lucrative career, partially because at the time the gospel was major in whatever you want, as a college degree will guarantee you success and prosperity. But I think part of the difference is that I also didn’t go to a super-selective, top-ranked college. I think the students at these really elite schools are under a lot of pressure to impress their parents and aspire to a lifestyle like what their parents and their parents’ friends have, and so they think that finance/banking (or medicine) are the best ways to get there.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Perhaps it is more due to you attending a LAC for undergraduate study, since less selective non-LACs tend to have a higher percentage of students in overtly pre-professional majors? Of course, the lure of Wall Street and consulting at elite colleges is not limited to students in overtly pre-professional majors, so perhaps careerist students at elite colleges are less likely to feel a need to choose a pre-professional major for the employment prospects.</p>
<p>
A few years ago, a senior from Duke made a similar remark here on CC.</p>
<p>In DS’s circle of friends and roommates back in college, it was like this:</p>
<p>4: premeds/medicine
2: prelaw/law
1: i-banking/consulting
2: non-profit organization
2: high school teachers
1: music career (he actually had almost completed all premed requirements and 100% could made it, but chose other career path in junior. His parent is a physician.)
0: PhD or MS program</p>
<p>It is somewhat surprizing that zero students chose to continue onto the traditional, non-professional graduate school. I thought that almost all of these students were academically high achievers back in their high school years? (BTW, those two who chose to teach had almost perfect SAT scores back in high school. So did most other students mentioned above.)</p>
<p>It appears that higher the US N&R college rank their colleges are, the faster they run away from any of the traditional academic career paths. It is not because their college GPAs are not good or they have been struggling academically in college. Their high GPAs are for getting into med/law schools! (The majority of the 6 premeds/prelaws here have very high GPA at graduation.) Is it just “uncool” to go to graduate school for this new generation? Maybe in a few years, the new fad is to get into a prestigious college and then go work for Google or facebook, not even go to any kind of professional schools either.</p>
<p>I don’t think that choosing a job over not having one makes one “insecure.” Nor is one necessarily “insecure” merely because s/he does not wish to attend grad school immediately after college, or ever. These top students worked extremely hard to get into top schools, and then worked very hard for four years while there, and some simply are not interested in doing more school right away. What the article terms “risk-averse”, could also be called being a responsible adult who pays the bills. Does being secure mean defaulting on student loans? </p>
<p>These sorts of articles seem to be written from the point of view of the upper class, which has a financial safety net that allows Junior to wait for the perfect job to come his way, or to tour Europe while he figures out what he wants to do with his life. I suppose doing that makes him a more secure person than the kid who takes a banking job? Strange…it used to be that the person who kept going to school was viewed as the insecure type–someone who wanted to postpone entering the adult world and getting a real job. </p>
1 Like
<p>It does take some guts for a 21 year old to take that next step after graduation. I will never, ever, forget the feeling in my stomach between graduation afternoon and loading the car for a new city, sans job. It’s “easy” for these kids to accept a job with Wall Street (early - before graudation) and not have to worry about where they go…hence the “risk adverse.” These Ivy League kids don’t want to be left holding an empty bag after graduation. I also think these are kids who always tended to know what the next step was and have never really struggled to get to that next step. Suddenly being confronted by graduation and no “next step” would be bound to shake these kinds of kids up alittle. Easy pickens for Wall Street and Teach for America type programs.</p>
<p>Going into an industry where starting salaries hover around $80k-100k, heavy dose of occupational prestige and placement in a major city seems like a very measured decision to me (read: not risk adverse). Haven’t finance, law and medicine/research have been the major three fields from Ivies for a very long time? MBB consulting seems to pull from same sort of kids who consider finance. All the non profit and teachers are shaping up a resume for law school. I’m sure more of these students would consider computer science, but it’s too hard.</p>
1 Like
<p>
One of DS’s friends, who is the one working the hardest in college in DS’s opinion, actually took a break for 2 years after college. She took a science teaching job in UK and came back to the US for med school in NYC. I think she badly needed such a break right after college. (I heard she took so many courses that “she barely slept” in several semesters in college.)</p>
<p>DS knew a person who is naturally drawn to CS but his parents want him to go into medicine. He was successful on the premed track but in the end he “rebelled” and chose his favorite career path. I think he did the right thing as very likely he would not be happy in medicine.</p>
<p>At my college, hardly anyone plans of going into finance/consulting at the beginning of freshman year. It’s only when they’re juniors, are beginning to get tired of school, are potentially racking up student loans, and recognize that career prospects in most industries are uncertain for recent grads, that Wall St starts to seem appealing. </p>
<p>I think the emphasis on a liberal arts education is part of the problem. It’s extremely unfashionable to ask “what is this degree going to be good for?”, because we’re supposed to be pursuing knowledge qua knowledge. But the result is that come senior year, there are lots of people with comp lit degrees and essentially no marketable skills. In finance, this isn’t a problem, because very few particular skills are required if you’re willing to work hard, burn your conscience, sell your soul, etc. In other industries, not so much.</p>
<p>One strange result is that it’s usually the people with less financial security who go into finance, where they can be reasonably sure they’ll make a lot of money. Only those from more privileged backgrounds have the luxury of working for non-profits, saving the planet, etc., etc. </p>
<p>(The fact that comp lit grads who don’t know what numbers are end up holding the reins of the finance industry isn’t particularly helpful, either.)</p>
1 Like
<p>Finance and consulting = money, prestige and living in major city with only a BA</p>
<p>Medicine = tough sciences and 4 years of med school</p>
<p>Law = 3 years of law school</p>
<p>Computer science = money, very hard and a bit dorky</p>
<p>It is no wonder why kids are gunning for finance and consulting. They earned their way into a feeder school, and a perk of their enrollment at an Ivy is access to these elite firms.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I am surprised by this for two reasons.</p>
<ol>
<li> His particular school makes it easier to get a master’s in 4 years.</li>
<li> I also meet people frequently going to MD/PhD from his school. I would not be surprised if the school has a disproportionate number going this route compared to other peer schools.</li>
</ol>
<p>It’s sad for the students and the country that getting an education for “education’s sake” is just not an option for so many students. They are facing mountains of debt after graduating. So if you’ve got a choice between banking, “health care administration” and a masters in comparative literature, is it really “risk adverse” to select the two options that are far more likely to help get you out of debt? I think, sadly, students are just being realistic. In my day, the career adage was, “do what you love.” Now it’s only the truly wealthy who can afford to do that. </p>
1 Like
<p>
</p>
<p>For those people who graduate with debt, the average debt is 30k. That is hardly a mountain…especially when you consider that that also included their housing, eating and living cost for almost 3 years.</p>
<p>I know the news always covers the debt stories with the example of the history major who has $250k in debt, but that is a huge outlier, not even close to the norm.</p>
<p>If we’re not reading articles about the millennial generation living in dad’s basement because they’re too spoiled to take a job that’s not “meaningful,” we’re reading about the millennials who are so “insecure” that they have to take a six-figure job on Wall Street for a couple of years, boo hoo. It seems this generation can’t win with the press.</p>
<p>For a lot of kids, this is a reasonable choice that serves several purposes; pays off debt or makes law or business school possible, gets one out of Dad’s basement, puts a known quantity on one’s resume, garners some serious employer letters of recommendation, and hopefully ads a few useful professional skills to one’s bag of tricks. </p>
<p>Of the two young people I know who went this route, one is attending NYU Business School on his own dime this fall and plans to continue in finance in some fashion. An Econ major, he’s always been a mathy kid, and also extremely personable and outgoing and will no doubt do well in whatever direction he takes. The other young woman, a math major, is currently attending Harvard Business School after her stint on Wall Street. She plans to concentrate in the health care field. I would never consider either of these 20 somethings insecure, nor did it sap their creativity; they used their opportunity as a springboard fully aware of the pros and cons, and made the most of it. </p>
<p>My Dd has a friend who majored in a social science field at Yale and is working as a consultant for a financial firm in NY as part of a team where someone thinks she ads value for a big salary. Her plan is to save enough money to open and operate a progressive pre-school, which has been a dream of hers for years. </p>
<p>This article didn’t ring true for me.</p>
<p>
The lack of PhD/MS students almost certainly relates to a small and/or biased sample. Stats published by colleges show a different distribution. For example, the 2013 Harvard senior survey reported the following distribution. I’d expect that a good portion of those who are working now will later pursue graduate school. For example, it’s quite common to have work experience before pursuing a MBA.</p>
<p>Grad School – 18%
Undecided – 10%
Working in Consulting – 10%
Graduate Fellowship – 9%
Working in Finance – 9%
Working in Tech – 8%
Working in Education - 7%
Working in Non-profit/Public - 5%
Working in Business – 4%
Working in Health - 4%
Travel – 3%</p>
<p>At Stanford, more than 20% of the undergrad student body simultaneously pursues a bachelor’s and master’s through their co-terminal master’s program, so more than 20% have a MS at graduation. After graduation, another 25% said say they are planning to pursue grad school. This is down from the 2009 survey when 36% said they planned to pursue grad school after graduation. I’d expect the decrease in reported grad school rates relates to a better economy and a higher percentage of tech majors. And again I’d expect a good chunk of those who are working to later pursue grad school.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>However, those well paid Wall Street jobs can be a hard, stressful, unhealthy life.</p>
<p><a href=“http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204062704577223623824944472”>http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204062704577223623824944472</a></p>
<p>It’s a tradeoff…the kids that head to banking might like it and find a career or they have postponed figuring out what they want to do in life. That is really what it’s about. Meanwhile during those two years they work very, very hard in a very expensive city and earn a decent salary. But any that don’t forsee a future in banking have only postponed a decision for two years and if they live frugally might have paid off their debt. It’s not a “bad deal” but it’s not a brass ring either if you aren’t interested in a career in banking because after two years you need to figure out how to “move the cheese” to whatever industry/career you really are interested in pursuing.</p>
<p>Look at it this way as an example - if you want banking, you’ have moving the chip forward heading for wall street
if you want to be a physician, you’re moving the chip forward heading for med school,
if you want to be a lawyer, you’re moving the chip forward heading for law school,
if you still aren’t sure what you want for a career, you aren’t moving the chip forward going into banking - you are simply working and being paid well for working and you could go to Colorado, tend bar and bump chairs and still pay off your loans and have a pretty good life for two years while you figure out what you want to do or any other place/destination/job.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Unless of course you find that you really like banking…or you find that banking is the last thing you want to do (removing options is a form of moving forward). ;)</p>
<p>As an employer I disagree with the statement that you haven’t moved the chip forward going into banking vs. tending bar in Colorado. And I don’t work for a bank.</p>
<p>It is a fallacy that being a ski bum or teaching sailing at Myrtle Beach is “just as good” a way to spend two years vs. working in a corporate environment of any kind-- except if you intend to work in the ski industry or become a sailing instructor.</p>
<p>Big corporations understand the value of the banking experience, even when they are not hiring finance people. And not all banks are alike, and not all experiences are fungible.</p>
<p>But if I’m a television network and am hiring an entry level analyst to support the people who price commercial time on my shows- who am I hiring- the bartender from Colorado who paid off his loans and had a pretty good life for two years, or the person who demonstrated an ability to work 80 hours a week, is up to date on the latest analytical software, had a boss and colleagues and had to learn to get along with the divas and the personalities???</p>
<p>I’m hiring the kid from banking, apologies to the bartender.</p>
<p>Small non-profits understand the value of the banking experience. I’m on the board of one who recently hired a new director of social media/digital communications. Where did she come from? A big bank. Two years with one as an analyst (metals and mining I think) and then transitioned to a commercial bank in a client service/marketing role. Taught herself a couple of blog type package products and boom- now she’s a social media person. We don’t pay what her old job paid, and we could have had our pick of more experienced marketing people. But it’s kind of hard to ignore the-- no exaggeration- hundreds of web articles, thousands of tweets, etc. that she produced working for one of the biggest banks in the world.</p>
<p>So sure, go to Colorado and tend bar if that’s what you want to do. But don’t delude yourself that you are moving your career forward by doing so, unless you actually want to live in Colorado, want to work in the hospitality/food service industry, or want a job in the spirits business.</p>
1 Like
<p>Granted it’s an extreme example, but the point is at the end of two years both kids still have to figure what career they are going to dive into. I was thinking more of the kids going through that mental process of making decisions.</p>