HS Outside Research & Math/Science Clubs?

Colleges and Universities A-Z California Institute of Technology
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<p>We were looking at the Cal Tech Application Supplement. There were plenty of places to list one's high school research, math/science clubs, and awards for the same. Does that mean that the majority of accepted students have things to list here? Does the fact that my son doesn't mean that he'd basically be wasting his time applying to Cal Tech?</p>

<p>The rest of the website, and the comments from techers on CC, lead us to believe that he might be a good match for Cal Tech, and vice versa. He's very smart and creative. He's hilarious (ie, the whole prank thing appeals to him, as does the wit we've seen from techers on CC). He's very naturally curious and notices and investigates things that his peers don't seem to care about. BUT, he has not joined any math or science clubs, done any research projects outside of those assigned in high school, participated in any science or math competitions, etc. He isn't a big "joiner" for the sake of joining.</p>

<p>He's a very laid back, very easy-going, very smart and curious kid, but he's NOT always tinkering with mechanical things or investigating chemical reactions, etc. He often thinks in strange, creative, new ways about things -- and he surprises me with his inventiveness. He loves math and science and can't wait to start studying engineering. He's also heavily involved in his orchestra and at the district and region orchestra level. But he doesn't have anything to put in those science and math blanks on the supplement!</p>

<p>At his large public high school, he's currently #2 out of 806 without any stress, extra work, or even a sense of striving to be #2 or #1. It just kind of "happened" because he's that kind of kid. He's a junior, so we don't have test scores on anything yet -- except a Duke TIP SAT in 7th grade. Those scores were phenomenal. He's taking the PSAT at this very moment. We expect from his high-school administered practice tests that he'll do very well.</p>

<p>Does Cal Tech accept kids like this? Or, because they're able to be so selective, are they pretty much choosing only those kids who have clearly demonstrated their scientific or mathematical curiosity by enrolling in outside competitions, doing outside research, and participating in math and science clubs?</p>

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<p>I think that he definitely has a shot, but as you say, Caltech admissions are very selective. Participating in some sort of math/science extracurricular would certainly help show passion for math/science, but there are other ways. He could write an essay about some creative/inventive idea he had, or some science class that he was really interested in, or some math/science topic that he finds interesting. If he’s interested in Caltech he should definitely apply.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your comments, IMSAgeek.</p>

<p>Are there any current Techers out there (like THEY have any time to write) who had nothing in those science/math club blanks when they submitted their applications? Or do all admits have something to put in there?</p>

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<p>I am a current Techer. I don’t know of anyone who didn’t put any math/science activities down, but that’s more because people don’t really talk about their applications once they’re here. I would expect that it’s somewhat self-selecting as well. Your average person who doesn’t have any math/science extracurriculars wouldn’t want to go to Caltech.</p>

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<p>Oh! Well, the proof’s right there! You DO have free time, don’t you, to be writing here on CC?! Thanks, IMSAgeek. I’d still love to hear from somebody who’s going there and DIDN’T have anything to put down. My son has extracurriculars, mostly in music and volunteer work. He just doesn’t have any math and science stuff.</p>

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<p>SimpleLife, Caltech admissions tries to only accept people who have clearly demonstrated mathematical and scientific interest because of several things. One, Caltech is first and foremost a place for science and math, not just a place for smart people to hang out. Second, Caltech is pretty difficult, and unless someone really likes science and math, they won’t enjoy the pressure. I love science and math, and I still crack all the time here. </p>

<p>Being highly ranked without striving for it also doesn’t show much, besides that compared to the outside world, he’s pretty intelligent. I come from a similar background, so I know how hard it can be for someone to adjust from the high school easy life to the Caltech life. If you’ve never even tried to push yourself in high school, how will you be able to handle a place where your best just isn’t good enough? </p>

<p>Junior year just started, so your son still has plenty of time to show his interest in math/science, as well as push himself. Students are also an important part of the admissions committee, and I’m sure that if any Techer heard your description of your son, they would very wary of accepting him.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>Simplelife,
I just was reading another forum(HMC) and you’d posted

. Why was he considering Caltech? Its not a place for someone who doesn’t want to work extremely hard.</p>

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<p>Oaklandmom, I can see that my message didn’t come across the way I meant it. What I was trying to say is this … As we’re looking at colleges and discussing them, my son cannot envision having difficulty with academics. He only knows his own experience so far, and he can’t picture himself struggling. When I try to warn him that this college or that might take a ton of extra time and he might be working 24/7, he disagrees with me and thinks he’ll be just fine. So I’m trying to find out about other kids like him, who are at these notoriously tough schools, to see just what kind of life my son could expect there.
I seem to have portrayed my son as LAZY. He’s NOT lazy. He’s pretty amazing, the way he gets things done so efficiently and so well. I hardly think it’s a negative that things come easy to him.
It’s not about him not wanting to work “extremely hard.” In some ways, he works extremely hard now. He just doesn’t want to work 24/7. I personally don’t think that’s a healthy choice anyway, though I know that’s a controversial subject here on CC.
Why would he want CalTech or HMC? Well, because they’re excellent schools that will push him academically; they’re filled with the kinds of kids he hangs out with now; they’ve got large percentages of musicians with lots of musical outlets; they specialize in math and science; they have some liberal arts components. The same reasons lots of other people want those schools. We’re just trying to gauge the kind of lifestyle change he might be making if he attended one of those schools. If they’re not a good match, then they’re not a good match. That’s why we’re HERE, on CC. To research these things.</p>

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<p>Jeez. Why do I feel like I’m on the defensive here? My question was a fair one.</p>

<p>That’s hard to believe, Kamikazewave, that people would be “very WARY” of my son. That’s got to be a stretch! Wary?!</p>

<p>He DOES love math and science. That’s why he wants to be an engineer. He definitely doesn’t want to go to college to “just hang out.” He wants (and needs) a challenging college experience. He’s not lazy or unmotivated. Things just come easy to him, and he spends his free time doing things other than science and math. Mainly music, but other stuff too.</p>

<p>I never said he’s never pushed himself. He pushes himself in music all the time. In his own way, I suppose he “pushes himself” in academics. It just doesn’t take much effort from him, compared to his peers and siblings. He goes to a very large, rigorous public. Takes all AP classes. Does all the work. Gets straight A’s and 5’s on the AP tests. And then it’s over. He just does it in less time than most. He’s not lazy or anything. His teachers love him. His peers call him nightly for help with their homework. He’s got tons of friends. He’s a stand-out musician. He does volunteer work twice a month. Etc.</p>

<p>He’s not interested in the math and science extracurriculars offered by his school, though he’s invited each year, because they’re boring to him. THEY’RE “a place to hang out” where kids can say they’re in the math and science honor societies. They don’t really DO anything interesting – in my son’s opinion.</p>

<p>Neither he, nor I, thinks it’s a good idea to join something just to “show an interest.” That’s where I think kids get into trouble with their college applications and finding a good match. He has interests. They do tend to be all over the board, but he’s convinced he wants to be an engineer. And math and science are his favorite subjects. So, if he hasn’t done it yet, I doubt he’ll start “showing interest” by joining things he’s not really interested in.</p>

<p>I guess if Techers look at his application and are wary of him, then he’ll go somewhere else. I’m just trying to find out whether it’s worth the cost and time of visiting and applying if he has nothing to put in those Supplement blanks – as long as he has lots of other things to put in other blanks. Looks like your opinion would be “no.”</p>

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<p>Btw, I do have other kids who likewise took nearly all APs at the same rigorous, large public school, in some cases from the same teachers, and likewise got all A’s. In some of those classes, my other kids had to work extremely hard for their A’s. They put in tons of homework time at night and on the weekends. Their hard work was evident. Not so with this son. In comparison to them, and to all my kids’ good friends, this son has a lot more free time, seems to breeze through things, and gets even higher A’s than they did (like pretty much straight 100’s). To me, and to his teachers, he clearly has a gift that he was just born with.</p>

<p>I’m guessing there are lots of other kids at the schools we’re looking at who are gifted in the same way. When I posted, I was hoping to hear from some of them – or from their parents – or even from admissions people who can help us try to gauge the best match for this particular kid. It’s tricky because we want him to be challenged, and HE wants to be challenged, but we don’t want to send him away to a place where he’ll suddenly have to work like a dog, for the first time in his life, to get his grades – since he has no experience, so far, working night and day, and since my family endorses a more balanced lifestyle than work, work, work – achieve, achieve, achieve.</p>

<p>I’m guessing that, to a degree, this son could be right … he WON’T have to work as hard as the majority in these notoriously tough schools. I was hoping to hear from kids like him who could say that “yes, I’m like that too, and I still have to work 24/7” (in which case he probably won’t apply to those schools), or “no, I’m that way, too, and I don’t have to work 24/7” (which would ease my worry about a major lifestyle change, working night and day for the first time in his life, a thousand miles away from home).</p>

<p>I want to emphasize again – he’s not working like a dog now simply because things that are thought to be hard in high school come easy to him – it’s not because he isn’t motivated or doesn’t like to work. It’s because things are inexplicably easy and quick for him.</p>

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<p>SimpleLife, I think you’re not understanding us here. </p>

<p>We do know what your son is like. Most of us were that kid in high school. The kid that didn’t need to work hard to get good scores. Most applicants are like that. What the admissions committee wants to see is that you pushed yourself in science and math areas. Did you partake in math competitions, science comps, Inventeams, Intel? Or did you just chill with your time. How did you use the free time you had in high school? That’s what’s important. </p>

<p>Reading your followup posts, I will recommend that Caltech isn’t the place for your son. High school academics was a breeze for me, yet Caltech is still very difficult for me. If your soon chose to come to Caltech, he WILL have a major lifestyle change. If that’s not something he wants, then he probably shouldn’t come here. </p>

<p>Of course, that’s assuming he isn’t some kind of genius that can destroy the Putnam his first year here. In that case, then yes, Caltech will be very easy for him. But from your description, that’s not your son.</p>

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<p>Simplelife,
my son is a kid who breezed through high school, and while a senior in high school took classes at UC Berkeley and breezed through math classes at UCB. One of his math professors there told my son he should skip undergrad math and just take graduate level classes. Guess what - Caltech has kicked his behind. He’s even managed to fail an undergrad math class. Is he happy he’s at Caltech? Yes. He loves it and it pushes him harder and further than he’s ever been pushed before. You said your son can’t imagine having difficulties with academics. Hmm. You and your son need to look at Caltech very seriously - how would he respond to struggling with academics? Would he survive? What has been his experience in being pushed beyond his comfort zone? How has he responded to not being “the best” - has he every experienced not being the best. Everyone that gets into Caltech was among the best in their high school, but once at Caltech only a few stay at the top.<br>
I think people here are trying to give you honest feed back on your question of should your son apply. Caltech as a reach for almost everyone. My son looked at Caltech as as a reach when he was applying. No one is guaranteed a spot.<br>
I’d also seen your post of the list of schools your son “loved” posted on the “what schools did your kid cross off their list” thread. All the schools your son loved were nothing like Caltech. I’m just wondering why Caltech is among the schools on his list of schools.</p>

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<p>Simplelife, I totally understand that the math and science activities at your son’s school were not interesting to him. This is a good reason not to participate in said activities. That being said, many people applying to Caltech were faced with similar choices and instead of focusing on music or something else, they chose to create their own ways to participate in math/science/engineering related activities. I am not on the admissions committee, but to me that speaks of a higher level of dedication than the one you describe.</p>

<p>Basically, think of this–we have a million plus one kids every year with perfect grades and an interest in music. What differentiates your son? You say that he has a real love for math and science–how do you know this, and more importantly, how do you convince the admissions office of this? If admissions has to compare two applications that are identical except for extracurriculars and they have to choose between a student who says they love math and science and a student who has SHOWN they love math and science, who do you think they will pick?</p>

<p>Also, while I don’t think Caltech is 24/7 work, I do feel pretty certain that Caltech is going to kick your kid’s butt–especially if he thinks he is as intelligent as you think he is. You call his PSAT score phenomenal–there is no such thing as a phenomenal PSAT (or SAT, or ACT, or AP) score here. Perfect is pretty much average and everything below perfect is subpar. There are tests where your son could do some differentiation (have him take the AMC/AIME, for instance, or any of the olympiads) and that will really tell you (and us) if he is a genius or is just smart. </p>

<p>All of us were that kid in high school who aced everything without trying. All of us were considered by our teachers to be the best thing in the past ten years or whatever. And pretty much all of us get consistently owned by the work here at Caltech. That’s something to keep in mind / discuss with your son.</p>

<p>If you / he decide that you are up for the challenge, start thinking about how he can actually make himself seem interesting to admissions. You say he thinks in creative and interesting ways–don’t tell us, show us. Put his thinking to good use. Once you’ve done that, come back and tell us about it. Right now we know nothing about your son except that he meets the minimum score qualifications and he likes music. Welcome to 98% of our applicant pool.</p>

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<p>SimpleLife,
Oaklandmom and Kamikaze, and IMSAgeek have offfered true, heart felt answers to your question. Let me add that my son won a national writing award, but nothing on that level at state math/sci competitions. His school didn’t have a math club. He found a way to take exams. Because sci/CS was his passion, he convinced the admission committee at Caltech to let him in. His visit there was the deciding factor in college choice.</p>

<p>I find it hard to believe that your S doesn’t read and study in his fields of interest. Even if not a formal club, he could write about his pursuits. He has time to take an CC course in engineering or some class of interest.</p>

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<p>oaklandmom, you sure seem to be tracking me and my posts with suspicion! I find that very strange. Weird, really. Why are you investigating my intentions?</p>

<p>The son I posted about on the “schools he loved” thread was a DIFFERENT son! THAT was a son who is majoring in VOCAL PERFORMANCE. You’re right … the schools he looked at and loved are not a good match for THIS son. Jeez. Do you have nothing better to do with your time?</p>

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<p>Okay, okay, okay. All of you are discouraging my son from looking at CalTech further.</p>

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<p>Btw, we are no longer interested in Cal Tech. No further need to respond.</p>

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<p>Simplelife, we all want the best college experience for our children, and the best way to get that is - I believe - to help them choose a college which is the best “fit” for them. When a question is posted on cc, sometimes the intent of the poster/repliers isn’t clear. I’ve seen many original posters become defensive (myself included!) when the responses weren’t what we were looking for or were critical.</p>

<p>But, really, you know what would work best for your son. My daughter’s school had a mathteam, but nothing else. Since she loved math, she found a Saturday program at a local college for middle schoolers. She met other kids who went to other schools who also were looking for more than their schools offered. Once in high school, one of those kids invited her to be part of a regional team for the Mandlebrot competition - no one school had enough interested kids to form their own team. She went to mathcamp for 2 summers and Ross for 1. </p>

<p>I don’t mean this to sound as if I’m bragging, but this is the kind of “passion” the other posters mean. That doesn’t mean your child won’t be able to get into Caltech without this. </p>

<p>But I would encourage you to think about other schools IN ADDITION to Caltech. Carnegie Melon is a great engineering school… Just keep in mind how well your son’s personality matches with the college’s. Good Luck to Both of You!</p>

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<p>I feel I need to clarify some things, for the sake of anyone who reads this thread in the future. I don’t want people to read this thread and be confused or get the wrong impression.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If Caltech isn’t the right place for you, Techers will tell you. We don’t try to pretend that everyone should come here. For many people, this is simply not the place for them. Anyone who’s visited Caltech should know this as well. If Techers don’t think you’re fit for Caltech, they will make sure you understand why they think so. Notice however, that there’s a difference between not fitting in in a certain House, and not fitting in to Caltech in general.</p></li>
<li><p>Techers do many other things besides science and math. Everyone has side interests; we have all sorts of athletes, artists, and associated “creative people.” However, everyone shares a common basis in a very strong interest in math and science. If you wish to be a professional musician, Caltech isn’t the place for you.</p></li>
<li><p>All Techers were “that kid” in high school. Please don’t think your scores will set you apart. Scores don’t really mean much besides an easy way to confirm that someone has the mininum qualifications.</p></li>
<li><p>Caltech is hard. It’s hard for everyone. Unless you think you can ace the Putnam on your first year, it’s going to be hard for you as well. If your high school was very advanced, and you’ve already learned most of math1, you might have an easier freshman year. Of course, the type of person who already knows all of math 1 would probably choose to pass out of it and take math2 instead.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>SimpleLife:</p>

<p>Your son needs to look at this board. Not you. You’re not going to college here. If he has no ambitions he won’t succeed anywhere.</p>

<p>Does he have any real experience in engineering? Would he fit into the CalTech culture? I don’t mean the website’s image, I mean the real deal. Don’t reply saying something like “he’s only in high school”. There ARE ways to find real and firsthand experiences. It sounds like your son doesn’t have much extracurriculars. Find something real, and reply back.</p>