<p>My belief is that because you did not follow the rules you shouldn't get a good grade on the project, but because the teacher didn't say copying online notes constituted cheating you shouldn't be given an F. What was your grade before this happened? Maybe the teacher drops it down a notch, but doesn't give you the F. As stated before, you misintepreted the rules. Use your parents to no end. Tell them what this will mean for you. My parents would fight to the death if they found out that because of a situation like this I'd get rejected from every school I applied to.</p>
<p>I do not believe that "taking notes" and "copying notes" are the same thing, and would not be construed as such by anyone intelligent enough to be applying to colleges.</p>
<p>That is such a bogus reason to count as "academic dishonesty". I am in AP Bio too, so I know how long those chapters are, they are RIDICULOUS and if it wasn't for the online notes I don't know what my grade would be. That is such a rip, the online notes are supposed to be a supplement it is not like you copied from another student.
This probably does not help you much, but really see if your parents can talk to the administrators and tell them that it took alot of work, because even the outlines that are online are LONG (at least on course notes). So to copy them straight would talk a ridiculous amount of time.</p>
<p>For those of you just joining us on this matter: It would seem the teacher in this case wanted the notes of the students as a way to show they had read the chapter. It was the assignment. Now, I might think the assignment is on the bogus side, but I do not see how it can possibly be interpreted that you go online to the notes and copy them verbatim. As mostly 18 year olds, you cannot tell me that this is a reasonable conclusion of the assignment regardless of how crazy-long the chapters are. It's called time management and this does not refer to the amount of time it took you to complete the cheating activity!</p>
<p>I am going to doubt this will negatively affect every single one of his applications. In his midyear report he will have ample opportunity to address this "change in situation." If there is a teacher or Guidance counselor who can write that this is not who this kid is in a very fundamental way, than all the better. And if he cannot... well, that says something in itself, doesn't it? </p>
<p>Frankly, I'd like to know who things are going on the OP's end.</p>
<p>It's remarkable how many people on this thread do not consider copying online notes 'cheating'.</p>
<p>It's even more remarkable how those on the fence said "well, if the teacher had actually explained that we couldn't copy the online notes, then maybe it would indeed be cheating. But the teacher never explained that. She was unclear."</p>
<p>Oh, she's got to **tell you **not to cheat, huh?</p>
<p>When you wash your face, does somebody have to say "don't wash your face with Clorox" for you not to do it?</p>
<p>:::shaking head in disbelief:::</p>
<p>Hel-LOOOO future Bernie Madoffs!!!</p>
<p>I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with copying notes off online especially the textbook's website.</p>
<p>To be honest, if the teacher was any good and really wanted his/her students to be prepared for college, he/she wouldn't have said anything. You copied the notes, so what. You learned a lot and your arguement could be that you learn best when you write things over and over. I know a lot of people who do this.</p>
<p>I guess I don't know if the punishment fits the crime. Should a student caught cheating fail the entire class, or only that assignment? Let's say a student copies another's homework. The homework would have been 2% of the 6 weeks grade. Should the student only get a 0 on that homework or is it so morally wrong that he should fail the whole 6 weeks? Or the whole class? Is cheating so bad that proportionality is not an issue?</p>
<p>It was briefly on the news when some students in Son's class downloaded some notes in an AP class when the "class rule" was only to be able to see the notes once, in the classroom. People who knew them also knew that the same students had cheated on a test the previous year in an AP class. The teacher, knowing these were "top of the class" kids, gave them a break and failed them on the test only, not the whole 6 weeks or whole class. If she had brought the hammer down harder, would they still have cheated the next year?</p>
<p>Very Funny</p>
<p>
[quote]
:::shaking head in disbelief:::</p>
<p>Hel-LOOOO future Bernie Madoffs!!!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is cheating so bad that proportionality is not an issue?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is a judgement question. And perhaps failing the entire class is not appropriate when we're not talking about an exam, especially since this seems more like the teacher made the assignment to force students to study (which seems ridiculous for an AP class). And I think that is perhaps the tact I would take.</p>
<p>My problem is not the punishment, as there ought to be some certainly, especially as a second offense. My issue has been that so many seem to think it is not even cheating, which makes me very concerned for the level of ethics (or lack thereof) we seem to be instilling in our youth. </p>
<p>However, had the teacher in your case slammed the kids the year before as example, I am highly doubtful there would have been any such nonsense in the year(s) to follow. I also don't think being top of the class should have any such bearing on whether there are consequences or not. In fact, barring other differences (such as previous infractions) to treat one group differently is quite prejudicial in my book. Of course, our school has a very specific honor code and my son has teachers that beyond the stated honor code have you sign a statement of honesty at the end/beginning of tests.</p>
<p>I do think thoughtful teacher discretion is required. We all know that the judgment of a 17 year old is not always perfect. </p>
<p>A student was caught cheating on the semester exam in one of son's classes. (The old writing formulas on the hand thing.) The student is a sweetheart who was way over her head in the class and was on the brink of failure, which probably would have caused rescission of college admissions, etc. So she panicked and made a terrible decision. I haven't heard whether she just failed the exam, or the whole class. I'm a softie - I guess I have more sympathy for the child who was trying to pass a class that's over her head versus the AP kids trying to get a 105 instead of a 98. Wise teachers need to take advantage of teachable moments, and giving the student the harshest possible consequences that can have a great impact on their future is not always the best solution.</p>
<p>I seriously don't think teachers should be so harsh on students really. I never got in trouble or did that cheating extravaganza but I sympathize for a lot of people who did.</p>
<p>There was this girl in my grade who had a abusive father who demanded $100 a week from her so she worked so much and never got her stuff done. Don't get me wrong, she is SUPER smart and probably a better student than me but no one can work under those conditions. She cheated and they failed her for the WHOLE class half way through the semester.</p>
<p>She cheated on one thing and they failed her on things she didn't even get to attempt yet. Just so unfair.</p>
<p>
[quote]
She cheated and they failed her for the WHOLE class half way through the semester.
She cheated on one thing and they failed her on things she didn't even get to attempt yet. Just so unfair.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is why I ask - is cheating the ultimate morally reprehensible thing to do at school? A girl at school got caught drinking and will spend 30 days at the alternative school - but no F on the report card (will show up on the transcript but won't kill the GPA). A guy threatened his former girlfriend with physical violence and got 6 weeks at the alternative school. Again, no F in the GPA. But you copy notes or write formulas on your hand and get an F for the whole class? I'm not really trying to stick up for the cheaters....I just hate automatic draconian penalities for anything.</p>
<p>It's less bad to cheat if you're over your head?</p>
<p>E-T-H-I-C-S. That is what we need to teach kids. IMO a kid should absolutely fail the class every time. The lesson needs to leave a huge imprint.</p>
<p>Take a look at the attitude of the OP. Whatever the punishment was the first time didn't deter a second episode.</p>
<p>Cheat a second time like in this case? If guilty, no decent college should accept him. 2 years at a community college is lots of time to remind him why he doesn't want to cheat his way through life. Then maybe he'll learn the lesson in time to not make this a life habit that's sure to have serious consequences.</p>
<p>"That is why I ask - is cheating the ultimate morally reprehensible thing to do at school?"</p>
<p>Except for committing crimes like murder and rape in school, yes, cheating is the ultimate morally reprehensible thing to do at school. After all, the main purpose of school is academics, and if one is cheating, one is failing at the main reason that school exists. Yes, getting an "F" for the course is an appropriate response to cheating.</p>
<p>Once, my AP physics b teacher caught a kid with a cheat sheet. He was just like, "I'll take this." He didn't even fail the kid for the test.</p>
<p>Another time, a kid in my AP psychology class copied a page of text from a website for his second quarter project. The funny part is that this was an optional assignment, the teacher would replace your lowest test grade with the project grade (most likely 95+) if you did it. Instead of just throwing this kids paper out, he replaced his HIGHEST test grade with a zero. :P</p>
<p>Where is the OP, BTW? Wednesday's meeting has come and gone, yet no word.</p>
<p>"I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with copying notes off online especially the textbook's website."</p>
<p>What's wrong is that it's plagiarism -- stealing someone else's work. Just because it was on the textbook site doesn't give one the right to copy those notes and then hand them in as if you created that work. Anyone who truly doesn't understand that isn't ready for college. Colleges tend to be far more rigid than are high schools when it comes to issues of academic dishonesty.</p>
<p>I agree there is a great deal of ethics involved. But in all seriousness, how can we expect our students to truly understand ethics when we have banks giving themselves BILLIONS in bonuses when they have stuck out their hands for handouts!?!? It is beyond ridiculous. Is it any wonder that other countries look at this country as immoral and greedy? And what's more, despite really trying to instill values in my children, there are times when they will say, "everyone else...." (fill in the blank). How often can someone say, "well you're not everyone else." How often can you say, "You are a <insert last="" name=""> and that means something bigger than your short term interest"?</insert></p>
<p>It's really starting to tick me off. Buy a jet, give yourself a million dollar bonus, walk off with people's life savings, cheat on a bio assignment. Is it any wonder these kids don't see it as a big deal? But the truth is, it IS a big deal because this is where it all starts. So much of what happens due to unethical behavior is simply because they've never been caught and/or never held accountable. Take the bonuses back, force the sale of the jet, throw the thief in jail and, at the very least, give the kid an F in the class and make it known to his schools that it is his second offense. Allow them to make their own conclusions on acceptance based on all information.</p>
<p>and oh.. maybe we havent heard from the OP because his parents took his computer away for using it to cheat? It'd be a start. If my kid is on my list, the first thing to go is his access to facebook. :)</p>
<p>The OP's second offense part does make it worse.</p>
<p>Patterns of cheating emerge early. My DH consults and writes on the subject of corporate ethics. These incidents that are viewed as "harmless" or due to overload are much more complex and indicate a person likely to make a lifelong habit of cheating. Teaching ethics at an early age is crucial.</p>
<p>To those of you who think it's outrageous with an F...a lot of schools hold "Zero Tolerance" esque policies and will expel you even copying notes from a neighbor or copying notes of homework. Plagiarism is a done deal concerning expulsion.</p>