<p>I guess there would not be a Naviance if everyone felt the way you and your kids do, Bay. Thankfully for those of us who like to use this info, not for figuring out others’ numbers, but for college purposes, most people don’t feel that way. But absolutely, if you or your kids do not feel like sharing the info, so be it. Highly unlikely, that anyone is going to notice your kid’s info is not in the reports next year, nor will anyone care. </p>
<p>When I was a kid, and when my kids were growing up, we all read a book titled, “If Everybody Did”. That was one fundamental to examine when trying to decide whether or not to do something. So it also goes “If Everybody didn’t”.</p>
<p>It was never going to be a huge mistake because he had an absolute academic and financial safety in Big State U, he just didn’t want to go there. I don’t want to parse words, but to me a safety is a school where your probability of acceptance approachs, but is not necessary, 100%. A “good bet” school is like a match school - probability between 40 to 75%. I have no idea what you mean by the last sentence of the first paragraph.</p>
<p>Naviance is a set of datapoints. How reduced they are depends on the number of students who contribute. In my son’s case, there were probably about 40 datapoints for Rice and about 100 for USC. Personally, I think that “the particular school involved is a significant variable”. Obviously, other factors come into play during the admissions process, not the least of which are “hooks”, but I don’t think that hooks can legitimately be analyzed to produce useful information.</p>
<p>Okay, I’ll bite. If everybody posted their stats to Naviance, then there would be little doubt as to the identities of some students and their stats on the graph. (e.g., One admission to Rice this year, and one dot on the graph). On the other hand, if it can be presumed that some students do not post their results, then it is more difficult to make those positive determinations, and privacy is more secure. (Six students going to Rice and 4 dots on the graph).</p>
<p>I would have no problem having each kid/parent sign something at the beginning of the year saying that the quid pro quo for the guidance department preparing and sending out transcripts is that results must be reported. That would get the point across. I don’t believe refusing to do so, however, should result in a fine or the failure to walk on graduation day. So I guess I would go for a mandate without a mandate.</p>
<p>Are you saying that high school counselors should refuse to fulfill their employment obligations and prevent students from going to college (by not sending required transcripts) unless students agree to report their admissions results?</p>
<p>We don’t have Naviance here. Nobody knows my kids’ stats and they never shared them with a single friend, nor have I. </p>
<p>However, if I am understanding from some posts of those whose schools have Naviance, I thought someone said that the HS can adjust it and only reveal a certain college graph if there are a certain number of admissions outcomes on that graph (in other words, they don’t show graphs for schools where about three kids have applied so far). So, if this is how they adjust it, and let’s say there are 10 kids represented on the graph, I’m not sure how everyone would know whose dot belongs to who if people keep their stats to themselves, as my kids did. While friends knew which college my kids enrolled at, they also do not know where else they even applied. </p>
<p>So, if there are ten kids on the graph for X college and 3 were admitted, how would others match up the SAT and GPA for particular kids if they don’t know which of the admitted kids is which as these kids did not share their SAT scores or GPA with anyone and in fact, the admitted school may also not be where they are matriculating and they kept private (with friends) their college list. </p>
<p>Now, if kids are telling everyone they know their stats and their college list (obviously not too worried about privacy in these cases), then not sure the big deal about Naviance itself taking away privacy. But if the students keep their stats to themselves, as well as their college list, and only tell friends where they are enrolling, I am not sure how everyone can then figure out who they are on these Naviance graphs.</p>
<p>Bay, I admire and agree with your two recent posts.</p>
<p>Without intending to get political on this thread, clearly what we seem to have bumped up against the age-old question of when does a potential benefit to a society, community, or group outweigh an individual’s right and prerogative (without reproach or denigration) not to participate?</p>
<p>Many of you feel participation should not be mandated, yet you think less of us who choose to opt out.</p>
<p>All I can say is that many of us are kind, caring, generous, responsible members of our school communities, but our generosity does not extend to sharing what we view as private, personal, or sensitive information with the school population.</p>
<p>There are all sorts of aspersions we can cast on each other; you may think we’re paranoid and selfish, while we may think you’re nosy and intrusive.</p>
<p>The law of the land sides with us (at least for now), and I will always come down strongly in favor of protecting individual privacy rights, even in cases that seem petty to some. It seems to me to be the principle that’s important here, not the relative magnitude of the issue.</p>
<p>momofsongbird…off topic but in an earlier post today, you asked where my singing daughter goes to school and so I didn’t want to ignore you but the answer is she has already graduated college in May 2009. She trained in musical theater at NYU’s Tisch School of the Arts. She is now 21 and a working actor, singer, songwriter, musical director, and composer.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, even though our school didn’t have Naviance, all this stats and data point stuff would not have been entirely relevant to someone else at the high school she attended in terms of seeing her results at colleges since a hugely significant component to her admissions process was an audition, though she was also a very strong academic student. But someone who was seeking the same schools for something other than a BFA in musical theater, would not solely be able to rely on the points on some graph in terms of their admissions chances at her schools. Also, typically only one, maybe two kids per year even apply to BFA theater/MT from her high school.</p>
<p>Soozie, congrats on your daughter’s wonderful accomplishments in such a competitive, mercurial field! She must be very excited to be “living the dream.”</p>
<p>Thank. She loves it and it has been a lifelong passion and so yes, it is neat that she is now living that dream in NYC and supporting herself in her field. I’m sure you can relate with a D who is also a singer, though is not done her schooling yet.</p>
<p>I get all the mantras about individual privacy rights. You’ll just pardon me for not seeing the proportionality in all of this. </p>
<p>Your child joins a community of other students, most of whom probably have individual college goals. The school subscribes to an admissions data service that, to the extent that it is universally participated in, can provide a service to you/your child, in that very college effort. But you’d rather cut off your nose to spite your face, all for “privacy rights.” </p>
<p>You (generic you) complain about GC’s and what lousy service they provide – or conversely you expect them to be at your beck and call and provide the ultimate in personal service, including to very selective schools. But you feel no particular ethical responsibility to share outcomes with them after such service, all because of ego (what others will see and how they might identify you on a grid). </p>
<p>Weird. Just weird.</p>
<p>Disclaimers:
1 - I’m not a GC at a h.s.
2 - My children did not earn perfect scores.
3 - I fully understand how to use Naviance, including what its limitations are. We did not care that Naviance doesn’t provide the backstory. My children knew the backstories of most of those intersections on the grids. Naviance is helpful for the insiders, not nearly as much for the outsiders. Although you haven’t read the essays, you often know a surprising amount (surprising perhaps to a lot of people on this thread) about the other accomplishments and personal backgrounds of the admitted and non-admitted students on those scattergrams. Their sibilings may now be attending the school; the admitted students may be something of a legend (or not; they may be known for a singular trait or accomplishment); the previous students may be discussed neutrally at school gatherings. Those are all part of the context of Naviance. Also, trends are helpful: for example, colleges who have never admitted that school’s students, regardless of accomplishment. All of that is information. It merely helps to modify college lists and to frame expectations. It’s not a crystal ball; that doesn’t mean it’s worthless.</p>
<p>epiphany… Lets be clear. My D reported all her information because she, myself and my wife all think it is a good thing. I just believe that people who for whatever reason, and I am sure there are many, who don’t report shouldn’t be condemned as awful and selfish. And I certainly wouldn’t deem myself capable of judging that the reason is not a good one.</p>
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<p>It is not unreasonable to expect competency and professionalism from those we the public employ. I don’t expect anything close them being at “my beck and call”. The frustration mounts in the lack of recourse to many of those working in the public sector who don’t even begin to fulfill their commitments. If you would like specifics PM and I will be glad to discuss. I don’t want to bring tears of boredom to others her.</p>
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<p>I would never question or why someone does not want to share their personal data. I wouldn’t hasten to guess that it is because of ego. </p>
<p>Overall i just have a very different viewpoint than some here on the founders of our country and what was important to them.</p>
<p>I suggest you just read all of momofsongbird’s post. She makes a more eloquent agruement than a poor working stiff like myself.</p>
I don’t get this. Why should we accept that these “personal reasons” aren’t the bad things you listed? Certainly, the effect is unhelpful to students who come later. I haven’t really heard any good reasons for declining, other than to avoid embarrassment for rejections. I can understand that, I suppose.</p>
<p>How about this: you only get a Naviance password if you agree to provide your own results information? You shouldn’t be a free rider on voluntary info provided by others if you’re not willing to share.</p>
<p>momofsongbird, you restated well the principals involved in your post #276–I had given an actual example in my post #171–when the reasons to withhold had nothing to do with selfishness; rather, quite the opposite. </p>
<p>Oh, and BTW, my kid did NOT boast of perfect scores, but one of the teachers announced these to the class without permission. In our small HS anyone could pick my kid’s point out on a Naviance graph, no matter how many applicants.</p>
<p>I don’t believe it should be mandated. I also question some of the info there. And if everyone put in the data, there would be more dots on the chart and it would be far more difficult to see who is which dot. Especially if the graph uses 4 year data without distinguishing year. Clearly if a kid is the only kid to have been accepted to a particular school in years, it is easy to see who he is, but if multiple kids over the past 5 years or so have been accepted to, say, Rice there would be multiple dots instead of the one dot of, say your son, Bay. Much more difficult to identify your son out of 4 dots, than out of the 1. So if everyone reports, then there is more data. </p>
<p>The true situation is actually neither. Not everyone reports. Not everyone who reports is honest. The only thing that can be verified is which school was sent the final school, and there are even scams on that one. Without spending an inordinate amount of time monitoring and verifying things, getting very close to 100 correct info is not possible all of the time, and even with such supervision of the results, someone can slip in a lie. Not only have I seen people who have said they graduated from a particular school be exposed as liars in that regard, but they may not even have attended, or been accepted or even have applied to that school. So the info is suspect anyways.</p>
The “free” part is that you’d like to take advantage of the information other people provided, while not providing your own. That’s the classic “free rider” situation. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t get the other guidance services–but why should you have access to Naviance if you won’t share the very information needed to make Naviance work?</p>
This is perfect. Everybody’s free to share or not share, but if you don’t share, you don’t get access to what others have shared. Simple, fair, and non-coercive.</p>