My D24 was showing a similar gap. She took Algebra as an 8th grader with a not so good teacher, and then due to schools shutting down in March 2020, she had not one hour more of math that spring. Nothing. She moved on to Geometry as a 9th grader at an independent school, but her school was online-only for most of that year. We noticed her struggling in math that winter, virtual learning really was not her thing. She started working with a tutor regularly, which helped quite a bit. Although she and her tutor meet weekly on Zoom, it has made all the difference having one-on-one support. There is benefit to online tutoring if you can find a teacher who excels in that format.
When she took the PSAT and a practice ACT, both in 10th grade, her math scores were much lower than her verbal/reading. She ended up doing marginally better overall on the practice ACT and was advised to prep for ACT rather than SAT for all future testing.
Math on the ACT is only one of four total sections, and the science section is mostly reading, analyzing graphs and data, etc. So a student with better reading/language skills might do better on ACT than on SAT (since ACT is 1/4 math rather than 1/2). D24 is also working with a test-prep tutor who has noticed significant gaps in Algebra, due to that lost Covid spring.
We are fortunate to be able to afford one-on-one tutoring, it has helped D24 significantly not only in practice ACT tests thus far, but in Algebra 2 last year and Pre-Calc this year as well. She will take the ACT in February so time will tell if her scores are strong enough to submit. We decided better to prep and try to raise scores rather than assume TO is the best path forward.
Math is an area where most of what you learn is based on what you learned last year, and what you are going to learn next year will be based on what you are learning now. It pays to understand each part well and to avoid jumping ahead. It is also a good idea to make sure that each student understands the concepts – just memorizing formulae and trying to apply them is not the right way to do it. I actually remember forgetting the formulae during an exam in university and re-deriving them from first principles in the margin of the exam paper before completing the exam.
A bad tutor (or a tutor who does not fit with the student) can be close to useless. A good tutor can be a huge help. A good tutor can help the student to understand the concepts and understand why it all works the way that it does.
It is early on but it might help to know what these possible colleges are. My D22 had a similar disparity on the ACT, a near perfect Reading score and a very good English score (she is a gifted writer) a mediocre science score and a crappy Math score. I think it was something like 35 reading, 32 English, 24 science, 18 math for an overall score of 28.She also had a 4 on her AP English and AP Psych exams. She did submit her scores and got into each of the 5 colleges she applied to, 2 non-flagship in state schools and 3 small private LACs. Non were reaches but some were targets. She wasn’t interested in applying to reaches.
She can do math but doesn’t like it. She can do her taxes and knows how to interpret graphs. Still working on budgeting . Her strengths and her interests are in humanities, though, specifically writing and that’s ok by us. We need great writers out there.
If you were to pursue getting extra time, I would do that with ACT because the ACT is an easier test content wise, it’s more a test of time/processing speed. So, if a student is allowed more time, the ACT usually makes sense over the SAT. Obviously, do your research, speak with your student’s HS GC, and take a practice ACT as well.
Share your concerns about a shaky math foundation, and think a tutor would probably be appropriate for her current math class if you can swing it. Free option would be to link her college board account to Khan Academy. It basically looks at where your child is weak and suggests prep for them. With my oldest studied for the SAT he would even input his practice tests to get further narrowing of topics he needed to improve. This was the only studying he did for the SAT or ACT and he ended up with 1560/35. With our other two, we did custom private tutoring, and actually ended up being less than the complete course because focus was specific to my kids weaknesses. In the case where there is such an imbalance I would think it could be very effective. Also try the ACT. Math is easier/more straightforward but you need to be able to work quick. The tutoring firm we used offered a practice SAT or ACT most Saturday mornings timed under test conditions for free. If this is an option I would do it.
I’m going to echo with the stop worrying about test prep, but work on core math skills. However, I think the emphasis should be on just helping her get better at something instead of suggesting that she has “a problem”. A B in Math Applications is not a problem, it suggest an area to improve on, but it also suggests that she can learn the material and improve.
I love math, and think everyone should continuously take math throughout their life, just to understand statistics, probability and logical thinking better. It’s a life long journey. However, for many, many careers, you don’t need to get past Algebra to have a successful career. There is no race to get to differential equations for a lawyer.
You daughter is above average in verbal skills and average in math skills. I think she’d better off focusing on her strengths, but making sure that she continues to understand the fundamentals of math.
Basically, there’s nothing wrong with being just ok in one facet and focusing on something else.
That being said, if you can afford it, and the emphasis is on trying to get better at something and not that she’s doing something wrong or is “deficient”, getting a math tutor to shore that up is good.
However, a good understanding of logic will be helpful to lawyers in terms of understanding laws as written. Of high school subjects, math is the most adjacent one to logic.
I agree, as I said, I think everyone should take math basically forever. But there is less of a hurry for most people to get there. At 520 math score and holding a B in math class currently, I think OP’s child isn’t in dire straits. It suggests that her competitive advantage is in the humanities and should focus on that, while making sure she keeps her math fundamentals up.
My D23 has similar breakdown. She’s in grade level Math as a Senior and her (2nd and final) ACT score broke out as 35 Reading, 34 English, 36 Science and 27 Math for a composite of 33. She spent four months with a private tutor basically just studying ACT Math and her score only went up ONE point. It was clear there was no reason to take it again!
She did send tests to every school that takes them and has no interest in a career in Math. So far she’s been accepted at 2 safeties and I’ll report back on the rest. FWIW, she also took the SAT but had a similar spread.
This is what I’ve read on Reddit from students who improved greatly on the math section. They get familiar with the types of problems on the test and study until they can solve those problems.
Also, the student needs to determine exactly what is being asked in the SAT, because they try to trick students.
I fear I might not have made my point very well. Basically, I don’t think people need to be excellent at everything. OP’s daughter seems to be well above average verbally and average in math (actually still technically above average but just less so). This is not bad at all. She also has a B in her math class. That’s also good.
I think it’s great to get tutors to help improve understanding if it’s affordable. As long as the emphasis is just getting better at something and not that she’s deficient in some way or if she doesn’t get a high math score she’s going to struggle in life. There’s already too much pressure on kids to excel.
If you’re naturally talented at one particular thing, I think you’re better off emphasizing that one thing and just making sure you’re acceptable at the other stuff. Ie, if you’re going to be a concert pianist – spend more time playing the piano and just make sure you’re good enough at English composition, and trig, to ensure a well rounded education.
I actually agree with you (and others) that focusing on the test isn’t a good approach. Understanding of math (and other subjects in STEM) is highly hierarchical. If someone tested poorly on a basic math test, it’s usually because of some fundamental gap in the foundation of math knowledge. Test preparation isn’t going to solve the problem. The student needs to find out what the gap is, and how to fill it systematically and thoroughly.
Let’s be clear about something. 520 is not a terrible score in Math. It is on the high side of average (65th percentile). It does not show that she is deficient in Math and does not show that she is a remedial Math student. It simply shows that Math is not her strength. It would not be good if her goal were to become an engineer, but that is not her aspiration. What she has going for her is that she has some clear strengths, which are superb and she should capitalize on those.
Celebrate your student’s strengths. We all have our ups and downs. I’m a terrific singer, and an awful dancer. No amount of dance lessons changed that. It’s the person I am.
Your daughter is not deficient in math. It’s just not as strong an area as her other areas. Yes, you can offer some tutoring, especially if the high school coursework is becoming challenging.
I agree with Bill and Thumper but only to a point.
Struggling in math in HS usually leads to avoiding things that involve math later in life- and that is really limiting professionally. Even in Business School (in a quant heavy program) as a former Math-phobe I avoided interviewing for ANYTHING that listed “strong analytical skills required”. Guess what- I learned in my first professional role that indeed- I had strong analytical skills. Not enough for theoretical physics or civil engineering- but MORE than enough to interpret a focus group of 10 consumers talking about why they don’t like to get spritzed with perfume when they walk into a department store, or why they routinely take 8 items into the fitting room when the sign says “6 item limit”. Yes, we changed the signs. And more than enough analytical skills to understand sales data, why a certain item was below plan and something else was above. And to predict that dropping the price of something by 20% would boost sales dramatically, and our gross margin would STILL be over 40%.
People who come out of HS who aren’t good at math don’t bother with ANYTHING that even sniffs of math, analysis, interpreting data. And that’s limiting. Our world is filled with math.
So if the D is struggling with HS math, it’s worth helping her get stronger in math. Not for an SAT score, not for college admissions, but because being stronger in math is going to set a foundation for her entire professional life.
I’ve had junior hires for my recruiting team tell me- in tears- that they wouldn’t have taken the job if they knew how much math was involved. Really? You need to track whether interviews for a particular role are up or down vs. last year??? You need to report on recruiting expenses-- up 10% vs. year ago but we made 20% more offers/hires (so that’s good) or up 10% but we made 20% fewer offers/hires (so that’s bad)??? You don’t even need to do the math-- Excel does it for you! All you need is a basic level of common sense (which they all have). And I need to coach them through their phobia… they can all do up/down, good/bad… but if there’s a three digit number involved they freeze.
Be kind to your D=== and support her (if she wants) in getting confident in HS math!
"Her reading was 710 and math 520. Her math foundation is weak, as she did poorly with virtual instruction, but I had hoped last year’s math tutoring would have helped more.
She completed Algebra 2 Honors last year and struggled all year. One inaffective tutor for 5 months and a much better one at the end of the year. The better tutor said D24’s biggest challenge is identifying the type of problem and starting it."
OP said the D is struggling. As I mentioned- I’m not interested in her score. Struggling is struggling.
I haven’t chimed in here yet, but have liked several posts. A 520 SAT score and a B are not bad results. And people, no matter how smart or how analytically gifted, do reach a point in math where it suddenly becomes significantly more challenging for them (with some reaching that point earlier than others).
That said, however, the part that gives me pause is that your D was pretty equivalent between verbal and math tests and that now there is a big difference, and you observed that change occurred with virtual instruction. It could be that this is where she would have naturally hit a wall in mathematics instruction, which is totally fine. But due to the circumstances, I think it would be worth delving a little further and having some tutoring to see what her holes are (particularly based on the instruction that was delivered virtually) to see if it’s a shaky foundation or if she’s reached the point where math no longer comes easily to her.
@Blossom’s point about math sense is right on, though. Being able to understand what numbers mean in real terms is essential. If the number goes up, is that good or bad? Or how much weight should we give to result from a survey that has a big margin of error? Or looking at the sample size between surveys to determine which has better credibility? Being able to see what patterns are being formed and what importance that pattern has.
I work in a field where there are plenty of people with Master’s and doctorate degrees, and it still astounds me that when a simple chart or graph is presented with some pretty obvious (to me) information, we still need to write narrative statements to state the obvious as not everyone is getting it, i.e. a school’s test scores dropped for four out of the last five years, but it still outperformed the district’s median.
If she has poor math sense, that is what I think is crucial to be addressed for her life as an adult. Whether she has difficulty with quadratic equations (Algebra I) or differential equations (calculus) is of far less importance; it is highly unlikely to make a difference in her life.
And what also stood out in the OP’s post is the comment that “getting started” on a problem is a hurdle. Those are the sales people at Home Depot who can’t help you figure out how much carpeting you need (I have had this problem and NOT picking on Home Depot here). These are the dreaded “Word Problems” which if you uncouple it from the arithmetic (it’s just multiplying after all- and the sales people all have computers and calculators)… If Blossom’s living room is 10 X 12 with a 5X6 adjacent alcove how much carpet does she need?
And more critically- these are the people heading off to pay H&R Block with the simplest of tax returns because they are flummoxed trying to add their modest interest and dividend income to their wages without including the capital gains (and they don’t understand the difference between dividends and capital gains anyway_.)
Feeling comfortable with core, HS level math skills is going to serve the D for the rest of her life…
. Her strengths and her interests are in humanities, though, specifically writing and that’s ok by us. We need great writers out there.