<p>Bruin walk - Princeton kids speak frequently about the activities in which they are involved, dance, journalism, politics, etc. There is no walk, but it's not necessary as the campus and school are smaller and everyone knows what is available without the mall concept.</p>
<p>Medical Center - true. Princeton students have to save any actual medical work in an actual hospital for summers.</p>
<p>Community outreach- Exists and is very strong at Princeton. You don't need East LA to work in a community.</p>
<p>Diversity - I disagree. Princeton was recently ranked very highly for African American kids and has a large Asian and international population as they are need-blind for internationals. D notices fewer Latino kids, but more African American kids. And Princeton finaid means that the economic diversity is there - albeit with a thick tail on the wealthy side.</p>
<p>Big time athletics - True. However, not clear that big time athletics are a learning opportunity.</p>
<p>Many more cultural activities - Incorrect. New York City is a little over an hour away and Princeton's residential colleges take kids up. Best ballet, opera, music, theater, city panorama in the world. Unless by cultural you mean clubbing. Princeton doesn't have clubs.</p>
<p>Now I have done this ad absurdio just to show that you can't make these broad statements have much meaning. I could list all the things you can't get at UCLA/UCB that you do get at Princeton but that would be silly.</p>
<p>Well, some UC students are exposed to very similar experiences as the Ivy students. I think you slighly overdramatized the situation when you said "a UC student cannot possibly be exposed to the kind of learning experiences on would get at an Ivy." They are different, most certainly, and much if it does depend on the student. You're right about geographic diversity, as in most UC students are from instate, but there are a few things to keep in mind. There are many international students. There are some out of state students, such as my roommate. CA is a unique state which varies so very much by region that it seems like the people come from very different areas. I think that California's size and internal differences, geographically speaking.</p>
<p>I not sure about some of your assesments, alumother, but why don't you make that silly list you speak of?</p>
<p>DRab - Thanks for asking, but I don't think it's a good idea. Princeton is its own case - it's smaller and more undergraduate focused, it's a suburban campus, it has an on-campus vs. off-campus social life, all students write a thesis - comparing UCB and UCLA to Princeton is really too much apples to oranges. A more appropriate comparison might be Yale or Harvard to UCB or UCLA, and I don't have enough info to do that. My D took Princeton over UCB because she wanted apples and not oranges, not because Princeton was a better orange...</p>
<p>Alright, I can agree with that, although I don't see how Yale would be a better comparison if Princeton isn't. Perhaps Harvard would be a tad closer.</p>
<p>"Alright, I can agree with that, although I don't see how Yale would be a better comparison if Princeton isn't. Perhaps Harvard would be a tad closer."</p>
<p>Both Yale and Harvard have stong graduate and professional schools and both are in an urban environment. Someone mentioned geographic diversity in CA. My kids went to a very integrtated high school with three magnet programs on an urban campus. Both the kids who matriculated to UC schools and my kid at Yale say that their campuses are not nearly as diverse as what they experienced in high school. Certainly the kid at Yale is meeting a larger group of people from other places than the kids at UCLA. Last year my daughter lived with someone from Europe, someone who had citizenship here and in another country, two people from the midwest and another from California. That is much less likely to happen at a state school and is an education in itself. Also, someone mentioned Bruin Walk -- Yale is well known for a lot of community service and extra-curriculars -- the kids don't really feel they are having the Yale experience unless they are involved in a number of activities. Bruin Walk is great, but a campus can be extremely active without an actual walk. A "walk" is less practical in New England weather.</p>
<p>I only went to UCDavis as a grad student 1979-82. While there, I had a grad suite (common bathroom shared with 4 singles) with one girl from Sweden (TA in chemistry), me from HI, another girl in law school from HI & one girl from the Netherlands (can't remember what she was studying). My then-boyfriend there was from Peoria, IL & studying ecology. My Swedish friend ended up with a boyfriend from Germany--can't remember what he was studying. One of my buddies was from the east coast, another from LA, one from the state of WA. I think we had quite a bit of diversity, geographically & ethnically (more than I had previously been exposed to & more than I had as an undergrad at UOregon).</p>
<p>I am not going to refute each of your arguments because we will never agree, but the statement "Big time athletics - True. However, not clear that big time athletics are a learning opportunity" tells me you have a point of view that is different from the vast number of students, who like me, consider sports related experiences not only valuable learning opportunities but the source of some of the fondest memories and strongest ties to the university.</p>
<p>Having said this, I agree with your apples and oranges analogy. My son chose Caltech over other schools, including Yvies and UCs, because in the end he realized he doesn't like apples or oranges at all. He prefers lychees, or whatever other strange fruit Caltech can be compared to.</p>
<p>I still don't understand why people in this board get so defensive when someone postulates that premise "HPY >> UC/UNC/UM/..." is not true in every case. I actually think it takes a special type of student (not the norm) to truly benefit from an Ivy education.</p>
<p>At Berkeley, S is a minority (only 38% of undergrads are white). His roommate is a California resident but immigrated from Israel a few years ago and speaks Yiddish with his parents. His suitemates are all California residents but with Asian backgrounds (Korean, Vietnamese, Chinese). I believe they all speak languages other than English at home. Diversity isn't a problem at Berkeley because California is one of the most diverse states of a diverse country in the world. (Though they are actively trying to recruit more African Americans). There is also a far greater family income range than at most (any?) private schools which mirrors the real world a bit better, though still skews wealthy. </p>
<p>Anyway, all the schools listed on this thread are excellent and have many, many benefits and opportunities. Berkeley is a great match for many types of kids but would be a bad match for some. Same with Princeton. My S, for instance, wanted a bigger student population than Princeton offered and he wanted to be adjacent to a big city. Some kids would probably freak out at how big Cal is, and the noise and pace of the urban scene would not be tolerated. (of HYP, Harvard is closest in feel to Berkeley, by the way, though I haven't been to P to see for myself.) </p>
<p>There's no need for lists. Or rather, the lists should be drawn up individually, based on individual kids. That's part of our job. It's silly to compare schools that are both so different and of such high quality. Alumother's D is thrilled to be at Princeton, an incredible school. My S couldn't be happier than at Berkeley, another incredible school that has given him so many opportunities in just six months. (I just spoke with him this evening and learned that today he went into SF and met one of the Democratic nominees for governor AND he found out he has been invited to fly to DC next month with four other students to attend a big-time political event in which he'll likely meet presidential candidates and current majority/minority leaders, etc... he's one happy camper tonight and Cal must seem like nirvana to him). </p>
<p>It all comes back to fit. And like jeans, of which there are thousands of varieties, it depends on the person wearing them. Silly to argue which is best.</p>
<p>momof2inca. Again. Couldn't agree with you more. Silly to argue which is best. BTW, my father, a professor retired from a full career as a tenured professor at Stanford, agrees that Cal is an absolutely phenomenal institution. Was all for D going to Cal. But D specifically wanted a place small enough that she could get her arms around it. She is honing in, I see it now, on the institution. It all comes back to fit amongst the many top universities and LACs in the US. Again, as you said, silly to argue which is best.</p>
<p>momof2inca, as to Cal's trying to get more African American students, I think my friend told me something relevant, that the population of African Americans in California is shrinking. Just something tangential.</p>
<p>I love the campus but just heard and I posted about this but you seem to be fluent in Pton- is the school administration and faculty very right wing? Is there lots of censorship compared to the other Ivies. I heard the administration was extremely uptight. No fun.. serious serious serious and all the way to the RIGHT.</p>
<p>please elaborate on your answer if you have the time to respond thank you so much.</p>
<p>I giggled when I read that Cal is trying to recruit more Black kids....in my D's experience, there are lots of black kids- both her roommates and many of their friends are black, so D's vision is that there is diversity....just shows how your own experience changes the statistical picture ;) Really, statistics can be so meaningless, it is all about your student's needs and the right choice for them. </p>
<p>BirdLoverFla. I haven't heard anything of the sort about the Princeton administration. Shirley Tilghman, the president, is a single mom from Canada. She is known for attending the Drag Queen contest, and looking to up the number of "blue-haired kids" and performing artists, all the while shaking up the sciences and creating interdisciplinary directions.</p>
<p>Now, Princeton kids, some of them, may be more conservative than some other Ivies, but still, campus is more liberal than not.</p>
<p>And a school with the eating clubs, where there seems to be as much attending of lingerie parties and drinking as there is eating, is about as far from deadly serious as you can get and still be one of the top universities in the world.</p>
<p>Oh, there are black students, but the number applying is declining, leading to the number accepted declining, leading to the number of attending declining, amongst other things.</p>
<p>MCP - As you can see from the discussion, the answer to your question is.... it depends... Having gone thru this dilemma last year & beginning it again this year, here is my suggestion FWIW: Sit down w/ yourself and make a list of what is impt to you in a college & prioritize it. Look into the schools you are considering. Arrange to visit (at least one overnite per school) attend some classes talk talk talk and listen to your heart about feel. Only you & your family can truly decide if "it's worth the mula" & really, you can change your mind. GL!</p>