Hypocrisy at West Point

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
141

<p>
[quote]
So, are you trying to say that the caliber of people admitted isn't good enough, and that Army needs to do better? Seems like they're doing fine, according to the statistics.

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</p>

<p>Look at the attrition rates. </p>

<p>
[quote]
This is all about Army Football, pure and simple.

[/quote]

Sadly, I think you are correct.
I wasn't in the room or on the committee and don't know whose brainchild the ASO policy is but...... I do have a nagging feeling that it is more about Army football than about recruiting.
At least the perception is there and that is hard to shake.</p>

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<p>I think one of the most frustrating parts of this discussion is the manner in which the "justification" or "rationalization" of the ASO policy keeps morphing into a solution for all that ails the Army; first we had a policy connected to the recruiting requirements of the USMA, then it becomes a tool to help facilitate enlistment, and now we are talking about attrition rates??? Does anyone really think some kid who nearly just had his a** blown off by an IED is going to look at the Army ASO policy and the fact that some cadets have been drafted as reason to re-up? </p>

<p>Whether you may or may not agree with the policy as it relates to the athletic program at the USMA, that is a completely separate issue from the attempts to rationalize or somehow re-characterize the policy as something that it is not. As D&G said above " This is all about Army Football, pure and simple".</p>

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<p>I don't think that the ASO policy is a solution for all that ails Army. I don't think it is intended to be.</p>

<p>The ASO policy does potentially have benefits for the Army and not just for the cadet. This is what I was attempting to illustrate.
It could benefit recruiting at USMA and attracting football recruits - yes. Any increase in numbers of applications, increases the competition and the likelyhood of attracting young people who will be good cadets.
Same with athletic recruiting - anytime you increase the pool in which you can draw athletes you increase the likelyhood of getting better athletes.</p>

<p>The attrition rate of which I am speaking is the Academy attrition rate.
It has been said on this forum many times - the attrition rate at Navy is very low. Much lower than at West Point. I could find the numbers but I think Army graduates about 100 less each year and starts with a bigger class.</p>

<p>The ASO policy is intended to assist with Army recruiting. All facets of it. Enlisted and officer, and yes USMA athletes.</p>

<p>Athletics are a huge part of both Army and Navy. As they are at many colleges and universities. As you probably know, anytime there is a "good" team or a "winning" team or a team that makes the "March Madness" cut - the atmosphere on campus is highly charged. Excitement is in the air. Not just athletes but non athletes alike. Everyone is proud of their school.
When the team is losing the opposite occurs - year after year.
When an ongoing war limits your recruiting and your football players are being recruited out from under you while they are playing for you - that has to be discouraging. You start looking for options. Ways to create a win/win situation - for the Army and Army Football.</p>

<p>Please - Navy grads, mids and fans, USNADad&Grad, USNA69, rjrzoom57 and the rest of you:
Reassure me that is the tables were turned and Navy instituted this policy that you would be just as irate.</p>

144

<p>From US News again - Top 100 Graduation rates:
USNews.com:</a> America's Best Colleges 2008: Highest graduation rates</p>

<ol>
<li>Navy 87%</li>
<li>Army 82%</li>
<li>Air Force - 75%</li>
</ol>

<p>One of the WP faithful asked me in a PM to declare whether I would be in favor of ASO for Navy. No, no, and no. I'd rather lose to Army every year than do that. The vast majority of Navy grads I've spoken to feel the same way. </p>

<p>I feel like "Sam I Am" in Green Eggs & Ham...</p>

<p>I do not like it in a house,
I do not like it with a mouse,
I do not like it here or there,
I do not like it anywhere...</p>

<p>If attrition is a problem and ASO is the answer, I would expect USAFA to be the school asking for their Secretary to allow ASO. That is, if you believe that there is or will be any correlation. Highly doubtful.</p>

<p>Ask Xchefmike - if he still posts here - about the poll done in Ohio. 82% said cadets should fulfill their obligation first. Only 18% in favor of ASO.</p>

145

<p>USNA Dad&Grad... if remember correctly, Sam I Am realizes he actually does like green eggs and ham in the end of the poem. Being the Dr. Seuss expert I am (LOL!), I would say that's not the best analogy.</p>

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<p>"Whether you may or may not agree with the policy as it relates to the athletic program at the USMA, that is a completely separate issue from the attempts to rationalize or somehow re-characterize the policy as something that it is not. As D&G said above " This is all about Army Football, pure and simple". </p>

<p>This is the policy:</p>

<p><a href="http://west.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/pr070824sports.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://west.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/pr070824sports.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This directive type memorandum prescribes the Department of Defense policy for
officers on active duty who are graduates of the Service Academies or ROTC programs to
request excess leave or early release from active duty for the purpose of pursuing a
professional sports activity with potential recruiting or public affairs benefits for the
Department. Exceptional personnel with unique talents and abilities may be released
from active duty when there is a strong expectation they will provide the Department with
significant favorable media exposure likely to enhance national recruiting or public
affairs efforts. Personnel will be expected to use their talents in a manner that generates
interest for service in the United States Armed Forces.</p>

<p>Yes, I understand you do not like the policy (I don't like it either). Yes, I understand that you do not believe that the policy is about recruiting; you believe it is all about football. I do not know if that is true or not – I am not justifying anything just trying to keep the facts on the table.</p>

147

<p>JAMO4:</p>

<p>If anybody knows about being the doormat of the Service Academy football world it's USNA.</p>

<p>The slide happened when I was there. George Welsh left Navy (his alma mater) in 1981 for Virginia. He turned the program around at UVA, and the Navy program went into the veritable crapper and stayed there for the next 20 years.</p>

<p>We had a couple of good seasons here and there, but we lost to USAFA 19 times out of 21 years from 82-2002. Our record against Army was 9-12. Combined 11-31 in CIC play.</p>

<p>What did Navy do? We finally hired a coach who understood how to compete and recruit in the SA world. We just lost him, but the mood is still positive with Coach Niumatalolo at the helm.</p>

<p>Did recruiting for quality Mishipmen suffer during that period? I doubt it. Did the "world" come to an end because we lost to Army and Air Force twice as much as we won? Nope. Did we ask for special exceptions to get an advantage? Nope.</p>

<p>It's just football for crying out loud, and if you look at the long history of the SA's, recruiting is neither positively or negatively impacted by winning football games. Morale might be better, but life goes on. </p>

<p>Both the coaches at USNA and USAFA have said officially they "don't care" about the ASO policy, but that they wish the playing field was level for all academies. West Point is taking this somewhere we don't want to go to gain an advantage.</p>

<p>Yeah, it's within the "rules" but it sure doesn't seem like the right thing to do - especially given the fact that we're in a war. </p>

<p>I love the "Duty, Honor, Country" MacArthur quote posted by AF6872. It sums it up for me.</p>

148

<p>Hershey - I had the same thought, but I posted it anyway... ;)</p>

<p>Rest assured that even IF Navy decides to follow ASO - not out the realm of possibility - I won't like or support the move, and I won't keep posting the directives to prove that somehow it's "legit". It's wrong.</p>

149

<p>Ann - as the lawyers say, "I will stipulate to the fact that this is a DOD policy, and that the Secretary of the Navy and Air Force have both chosen NOT to allow this for their respective services - and they could if they chose to." Does that make it any more palatable? My answer is no.</p>

<p>I'll quit talking about it if you guys will quit trying to defend it and make it seem ok.</p>

<p>Can we just agree to retreat to our neutral corners and let this thread sink into the mud of the message board? I will, if you guys will. Scout's honor.</p>

150

<p>(militarytimes.com)</p>

<p>Vice Adm. John “Boomer” Stufflebeem was relieved by Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead because , the CNO lost confidence in Admiral Stufflebeem’s judgment and his continuing ability to lead in the office of the CNO,” said Rear Adm. Frank Thorp, the Navy’s chief of information.</p>

<p>A DoD IG investigation began after officials received an anonymous letter earlier this year accusing VADM Stufflebeem of having an inappropriate relationship while serving as President George H.W. Bush’s military aide in 1990. Thorp was careful to point out that VADM Stufflebeem was relieved directly due to the misleading testimony, not because of the allegations in the letter.</p>

<p>Thorp said the findings of the IG investigation are still under review, and the case will be sent to Adm. Kirkland Donald, director of naval nuclear propulsion, “for appropriate review and action,” he said. In the meantime, VADM Stufflebeem is working on the staff of the CNO.</p>

<p>An earlier anonymous letter regarding VADM Stufflebeem was sent in 1999, but at the time, the Navy and DoD deemed there was “insufficient evidence to pursue the matter,” Thorp said.</p>

<p>VADM Stufflebeem’s rank has reverted to rear admiral, which is typically done when an officer is not serving in a three-star billet. Officers need congressional approval to serve as vice admiral or above, and can only maintain that rank when actually serving in those jobs.</p>

<p>RADM Stufflebeem, a career naval aviator, rose to prominence in the opening days of Operation Enduring Freedom in 2001, frequently briefing reporters as the deputy director for global operations on the Joint Staff. After graduating from the Naval Academy Class of 1975, RADM Stufflebeem was a practice-squad punter for the Detroit Lions under a special program that allowed the NFL to carry military players in a reserve status while they are on active duty. In his collegiate days, Stufflebeem was an outstanding punter for the Naval Academy, averaging more than 39 yards per kick , during his sophomore and junior seasons at Navy, Stufflebeem also was a backup offensive end. The Lions asked Stufflebeem to join them full time, but the aviator opted to fly jets.</p>

151

<p>"The Lions asked Stufflebeem to join them full time, but the aviator opted to fly jets."</p>

<p>Maybe after a few years with Detriot, Campbell will opt to fly helicopters for Air Cav.</p>

<p>Watching the news lately, I don't think the War on Terrorism is going end anytime soon.</p>

152

<p>not trying to open this one back up, but I came upon an interesting article...</p>

<p>The</a> Gazette: Air Force Academy</p>

<p>
[quote]
The U.S. Army is reviewing its Alternative Service Option program that allows West Point graduates to play professional sports immediately after graduation, according to Army spokeswoman Lt. Col. Anne Edgecomb. </p>

<p>Perhaps not coincidentally, a Department of Defense memo obtained by The Gazette seems to encourage the Army to abandon the program and comply with a Department of Defense policy that the Air Force and Naval academies follow.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>Because the Navy is at war, they have cancelled even the two active and five reserve policy of which David Robinson was a part:</p>

<p>Navy</a> hurler seeks unique (MLB) draft resolution | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com</p>

154

<p>Former</a> Army football player and NFL hopeful Tolson receives orders to report and begin officer training - RecordOnline.com - The Times Herald Record</p>

<p>
[quote]
Owen Tolson hoped to continue using Army's Alternative Service Option to try and latch on with an NFL team later this month when training camps open.</p>

<p>Instead, Tolson, Army's punter/kicker for the last three years, received written orders on Wednesday to report and begin his officer training on Sunday at Ft. Sill, Okla.</p>

<p>"Football is a thing of the past, I'm told," said Tolson, who signed with the Giants in May but was cut after rookie mini-camp.</p>

<p>

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<p>The article also states that Pete Geren, Secretary of the Army is
[quote]
close to making a decision on whether the Army will adjust the policy

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.</p>

155

<p>thanks for the update.</p>

156

<p>Interesting news!</p>

157

<p>here is the link
Army</a> orders Lions draft pick Campbell to withdraw - NFL - Yahoo! Sports</p>