Service obligation

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
1

<p>I was just reading through the Academy catalog in the section about service obligations should a midshipman not graduate for various reasons. It's a little bit more convoluted from my years.</p>

<p>I have been monitoring the situation with recently graduated Navy baseball player, Mitch Harris, who was drafted by the St. Louis Cardinals in the last Major League Baseball draft. Harris was denied the opportunity to play baseball, unlike the drafted athletes from the Air Force Academy and the Military Academy. In fact, so strict is the Navy on this matter, that other naval personnel who were previously permitted to pursue professional sports careers, had that privilege rescinded. </p>

<p>I respect the Navy for their stand but it is certainly discouraging to see how the other Academies, and services, apparently do not see it that way. Certainly sports recruiting at the Naval Academy is going to take a big hit as a result.</p>

<p>In any case, back to what I was reading.</p>

<p>It says, "If you refuse a commission upon graduation, your enlisted service requirement is four years, OR MONETARY REIMBURSEMENT MUST BE PROVIDED."</p>

<p>That tells me that these athletes, if given enough money in their signing bonus with a professional sports team, theoretically, could pay off the Naval Academy for their education, turn down their commission, and go play professional sports. They would have a 4-year degree, have zero obligation, and would only be out the money. </p>

<p>I'm sure the price of a 4-year Naval Academy education would be quite exorbitant, but some of these signing bonuses are in the millions. Also, I would think that if a professional sports team wanted a kid bad enough, they would be willing to pay it for him.</p>

<p>Take David Robinson, for instance. He was a #1 draft choice. How much do you think an NBA team would be willing to pay if the Navy refused to release him? Now, Robinson's case was different from Mitch Harris's in that David Robinson was allowed to pursue his professional career while doing some light recruiting duty. </p>

<p>Not the case with Mitch Harris, however. No such deals are being struck.</p>

<p>If the Navy maintains its current policy and a super-great athlete should emerge from the ranks of the Brigade, I'm wondering if this provision of "buying off" your education may be invoked. Pennies to some of these rich sports franchises!</p>

2

<p>Good point. However, you assume that the choice of enlisted service or payback is that of the service member. Not sure if that is true or not. The Navy may force the enlistment instead of the monetary reimbursement which I understand would be in the 120k range (only the last two years)</p>

3

<p>Unless medically disqualified, if you accept the diploma you accept the comission. If he wanted to play so bad he could have not graduated and left before he accepted his diploma and comission. If it only cost 120K to get out of the 5 years, I am guessing you would see more people take that option who slipped through the cracks and see the service commitment as a speed bump to their future careers.</p>

4

<p>But the catalog says, "If you refuse a commission UPON GRADUATION ..." The way it reads, you can graduate and simply refuse to raise your right hand and be commissioned.</p>

<p>Pay the $120,000 ... say, "Thanks for the education and the opportunity to showcase my athletic prowess - if you need me, I'll be in Jupiter, Florida at the St. Louis Cardinals' spring camp."</p>

<p>$120,000 is pennies to the St. Louis Cardinals - if they really wanted Mitch Harris.</p>

5

<p>I thought an SA education is now @ $350K</p>

6

<p>For the record, David Robinson did not join San Antonio until 1989, two years after his graduation. He did spend time in the fleet (2 years) before going to the pros, even playing on the All Navy basketball team.</p>

7

<p>He does have the option to resign his comission if he is so confident in his skills. Officers can not receive dishonorable discharges (OTH,BCD) but by resigning your comission before your service commitment is up will be a huge black mark on your record that is almost as bad as having on of the above discharges.</p>

8

<p>I would think there is a difference between "not accepting a commission" and "resigning a commission." </p>

<p>Once the Academy is paid off (probably by the sports organization drafting the athlete), whether his professional career pans out or not, not much is lost. You still have a 4-yr degree from a great institution and you can move on with your life outside of sports with no military obligations.</p>

<p>All I'm saying with this discussion is that there does appear to be a "loophole" to circumvent the situation Mitch Harris finds himself in.</p>

<p>It seems he could have ...
1) Graduated
2) Refused a commission
3) Been forced to enter enlisted service or pay the Academy for his tuition
4) Pay the tuition (apparently just the last 2 years - but I'm not sure of that)
5) Go play professional baseball with no strings attached to the Navy</p>

<p>The problem is that he didn't know what the Navy was going to rule in his case until <em>after</em> he graduated and was commissioned. But future star athletes who get drafted by professional sports teams can certainly see the handwriting on the wall.</p>

9

<p>Yes, I assumed that the choice rested with the graduate who refuses a commission as to whether he honors his contract to the Academy by either entering four years of enlisted service OR (as the catalog reads) "monetary reimbursement" is provided for his education. I don't know what the interpretation is on that.</p>

10

<p>At the same time if the professional career does not work out, the admin separation from the Navy prevents the individual from doing a lot including in most state buying a firearm and holding any kind of job in government.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
Certainly sports recruiting at the Naval Academy is going to take a big hit as a result.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The SA's do not exist to recruit athletes, they exist to recruit future military leaders.</p>

<p>I have no pity at all for him for several reasons.
1. If he was that great of a ball player in HS other colleges would have recruited him...my sisters' son went full ride to OSU, including his laundry was paid for and a stipend to buy suits for traveling.
2. If he was that great of a ball player he would have been recruited for a kiddie contract...again sisters' son, received 2, 1 from Yankees, 1 from Pirates (125K) if he signed right out of hs.
3. He could have left the USNA b4 owing time. He decided to stay. He made his decision and should live by it. He told the Navy you got me, as an Officer he should live by his words, and signature (had to sign on the dotted line) If he had doubts he should have left.
4. USNA only accepts @10% of their applicants, many of them want to be a US Navy Officer, by him accepting his appt., and now wanting out, the Navy will be short 1 more officer.</p>

<p>The Service Academies, all of them, are reknown for their education and military foundation, not for their sports (Army Navy game not included). The typical mid is attending to become the best officer that they can be, not to become a multi million dollar athlete. If he wanted that as a baseball player he should have gone to LSU.</p>

<pre><code>BTW, 5 yrs for a great player won't kill him. Roger Staubach, a heisman trophy winner graduated from the USNA, went and served his obligation, includging a tour in Vietnam, and still had a phenomenal career with the Cowboys
</code></pre>

12

<p>I don't think refusing a commission is some kind of crime - like a felony. Refusing a commission, it seems, is a legitimate option with contractual penalties attached; those penalties being: 1) serve for four years in the enlisted ranks, or 2) reimburse the Academy for the tuition. </p>

<p>Complying with either of those two provisions should even the score. I don't see how the Navy would be empowered to tarnish the graduate's record beyond what was agreed upon. Complying with one of those two provisions IS the penalty.</p>

<p>Again, I don't know. I'm just speculating.</p>

13

<p>bulletandpima,</p>

<p>I agree with everything you said.</p>

<p>Like David Robinson, Mitch Harris was an unusual case. Some athletes do not blossom and excel until their college years. That cannot always be predicted.</p>

<p>When Mitch Harris, or any other future academy athlete, applies to the Naval Academy, I sincerely doubt a future in professional sports is looming in their mind. I'm sure that probably applied to Roger Staubach, as well.</p>

<p>But unusual things DO happen. They excel beyond anybody's wildest imagination and they catch the attention of the professional sports teams. It creates a possibility that nobody anticipated.</p>

<p>I do not look disparagingly upon these gifted athletes. They are too few and far between to characterize them as some kind blight on the system. I think an argument can be made (and has been made) that they do the service academies a greater service by pursuing a higher profile position with their academy background.</p>

<p>If you think about it, what military function do the Blue Angels have? We take talented officers out from the operational ranks in order to put on air shows for the public. To what end? RECRUITING!</p>

<p>David Robinson's nickname is "The Admiral" and his Naval Academy roots are well known. To many, it reflects favorably on the academy.</p>

<p>I'm not criticizing the Navy's revised policy on how to deal with these talented athletes. I'm only wondering 1) why the Navy's policy is different from the other services and 2) there seems to be a provision in the academy-student agreement that would permit them to pursue their professional dreams provided they can come up with the cash to reimburse Uncle Sam.</p>

14

<p>The Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds also exist for military pride! </p>

<p>There is a difference in athletics at the SA and flying for a demo team.</p>

<p>The blaring difference is, the Blue Angel pilots have already surpassed their obligation. Most of them will go onto make at least O-6 and higher.</p>

<p>Nobody recruited our friends for the SA to become a Demo team pilot. They *appointed * them to become a military leader.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think an argument can be made (and has been made) that they do the service academies a greater service by pursuing a higher profile position with their academy background.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>SA's already only accept 10% or less, the avg candidate is already applying to Ivies. Look at the Class profile for SAT scores, the % of varsity letter winners, % of class leaders. class rank They don't need a higher profile. The academies would exist with or without recruiting athletes, b/c their recruited athletes for the most part would also be accepted on their academic background alone.</p>

15

<p>I have posted this quote in the past and I post it again for reflection. </p>

<p>"And through all this welter of change and development your mission remains fixed, determined, inviolable. It is to win our wars. Everything else in your professional career is but a corollary to this vital dedication. All other public purposes, all other public projects, all other public needs, great or small, will find others for their accomplishments; but you are the ones who are trained to fight.</p>

<p>Yours is the profession of arms, the will to win, the sure knowledge that in war there is no substitute for victory, that if you lose, the nation will be destroyed, that the very obsession of your service must be Duty, Honor, Country.</p>

<p>Others will debate the controversial issues, national and international, which divide men's minds. But serene, calm, aloof, you stand as the Nation's war guardians, as its lifeguards from the raging tides of international conflict, as its gladiators in the arena of battle. For a century and a half you have defended, guarded and protected its hallowed traditions of liberty and freedom, of right and justice.</p>

<p>Let civillian voices argue the merits or demerits of our process of government. Whether our strength is being sapped by defecit financing indulged in too long, by federal paternalism grown too mighty, by power groups grown too arrogant, by politics grown too corrupt, by crime too rampant, by morals grown too low, by taxes grown too high, by extremists grown too violent; whether our personal liberties are as firm and complete as they should be.</p>

<p>These great national problems are not for you professional participation or military solution. Your guidepost stands out like a tenfold beacon in the night:</p>

<p>DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY."</p>

<p>Douglas MacArthur; Farewell Speach to the Corps of Cadets 5/12/1962</p>

<p>The mission and duty of those that choose to accept appointments to any SA has not changed.</p>

16

<p>Nice to see a good Army speech on the USNA CC site!</p>

17

<p>For those of you participating in this thread who actually attended the Academy, let's not pretend that sports (particularly football) is not a huge bonding force for the entire Brigade and for the Fleet.</p>

<p>Tell me you didn't feel chills when the midshipmen defeated Notre Dame this past year.</p>

<p>Just as the Blue Angels perform to RECRUIT, Naval Academy sports can achieve much the same thing.</p>

<p>Sports are a huge part of the Academy program, whether it be varsity sports or intramural.</p>

<p>So let's not pretend that it's not important. Apparently SOMEBODY thinks it's important or it would not be so tightly woven into the curriculum.</p>

<p>Every blue moon some particularly talented midshipman gets noticed for his tremendous athletic prowess. Are we to say he cannot pursue that unique opportunity because he is to be a warrior, as Douglas MacArthur would say? He cannot be extended some latitude (do some recruiting in the off season) to become a professional athlete? The Navy will suffer if he does? I don't think so.</p>

<p>If it's all about producing combatant officers, then why does the Academy allow some graduates to pursue medical degrees at civilian institutions upon graduation?</p>

<p>Somebody has to pull the trigger. (the combatant)</p>

<p>Somebody has to give medical care to the guy who pulls the trigger. (the doctor)</p>

<p>And somebody has to convince a young man that the job of trigger pulling is worth pursuing. (the recruiter)</p>

<p>Everybody plays a role.</p>

18

<p>I support Gen MacArthur's statement and AF6872's sentiments exactly in this case. However, it does cause rise to an interesting issue. Situations do change. </p>

<p>Midn A is recruited for baseball and blossoms as a player during his second class year, making him a definite pro prospect.</p>

<p>Midn B meets the love of his life his second class year. Only one problem, she cannot bear being separated from him during those six month deployments.</p>

<p>Midn C was always kind of on the fence and willing to give it a while longer, really wanting to quit plebe summer but was talked out of it. By second class year, he realizes that the responsibilities of being a Naval Officer gives him the cold sweats at night.</p>

<p>Possibly, all three will become horrible Naval Officers. Trust me, I have worked with examples of all three and would just as soon not have them in my Navy. They set horrible examples and do their enlisted troops no favors. The argument will be that they made a commitment and should live up to it. Should it only effect them, I would agree. However, when it effects both their troops and the Navy as a whole, it is a problem.</p>

<p>Maybe there ought to be an avenue where all can, with some type of financial or time and/or effort reimbursement, be allowed to resign their commission. In the old days, all were not commissioned.</p>

19

<p>Where do we draw the line? What if a mid gets an offer from a big company where they can make six figures right out of school. Should we let him out because its a "better" opportunity than being an officer? How do we know that this player will not stay in the minor leagues? What kind of recruiting tool would that be. What about the officer who has big plans after his/her commitment but gets wounded and can not persue them? Are we saying that because they didnt have a shot at a professional sport that their future dreams are not as important? </p>

<p>"If it's all about producing combatant officers, then why does the Academy allow some graduates to pursue medical degrees at civilian institutions upon graduation"</p>

<p>Because they are directly supporting the fleet. By saying X baseball player used to be in the navy but didnt finish his commitment, is that really a recruiting tool? A doctor will directly support the war on terror, will be deployed, will be away from their family. Do not try saying a Navy doc or lawyer are not combat leaders because they are. </p>

<p>That is a great message to send to future members of the Navy. Come and sacrifice for your country but I didnt because I was special and wanted to play baseball.</p>

20

<p>Navy07 you are dead on with your post. Memphis9489 is missing the point. Sure every cadet and every alumnus out there gets the chills when "their team" wins. But impacting recruiting for anything other than the varsity program?? No way. Follow that logic- if the quality of football team has any impact on the recruiting for the Academy or the service in general, then by logical extension the quality of cadets/midshipmenand soldiers should be negatively impacted by lousy teams. So- how bad did the quallity of Navy officers drop with your teams of the 80s thru the arrival of Paul Johnson in the later 90s? How about Army now- is the quality of recruiting for either the Army or the academy in the hopper because of the football teams troubles? Hardly.
Follow this example to its logical conclusion and either expect to lose the best and the brightest at their discretion - or have your entire reason for being called into question. I can see the mission statement now: "we spend $300k+ per student to train officers unless at the end they get a better offer -even in a war time?" That ought to secure a bright future for all of the service academies. Sports are important at the academies because they are complimentary to the mission of developing professional officers - if they become a mission unto themselves they have no business being at the SA. If there are varsity athletes at the SA with aspirations of a professional career they belong somewhere else, or they need to understand and accept that their career in sports will be delayed 5 years.</p>