<p>In the thread <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=80803%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=80803</a> on social science Ph.D., Interestedad posted stats that show that in measuring number of social science PhDs per 1000 students 43 of the 64 top-ranked schools are LACs. That seems like 2/3 of those listed are LACs. I'm not all that surprised but realize that I don't know what explains that trend really. Ideas?</p>
<p>A simple thought, don't really know. But we just ran into this on our trip to Reed and Whitman last week. More grads of LACs go on for specialized degrees in a more specific area not offered in an LAC program. In say phiosophy or history or psych, you need more training specific to thoise areas to qualify for a job. Great education in an LAC , social science majors with advanced degrees make jobs easier.</p>
<p>I'm not sure I'm right on this, but thats at least a part of it.</p>
<p>I am a great lover of LACs, but all of the data needs to be taken with three heaping handfuls of salt. What is being measured is the rate per 1,000 students. So let's first remember that LACs are small to very small, and have very low dropout rates; relative to state u.'s etc, incomes tend to be much higher. Then remember that the ones you are seeing on the top of the lists (the "top 64") often represent folks who entered with very high grades or SAT scores. What if you took from each of the non-LACs a sample only of those whose entering SAT scores were the same as those of students who were attending the LACs? In the main, the better LACs tend to have more folks going on for Ph.D's rather than MBAs or law degrees or social work masters degrees (which are essentially terminal degrees for most social workers - this field is still 80% women), or teaching M.A.s (also still, and unfortunately, predominantly women.) Finally, in my experience, on the whole many students who attend LACs (relative to comparable selective uni.s) tend to be "business averse" - they are less likely to have family connections as (or with) potential banks, bankers, or big business generally speaking, less comfortable with the notion, and are more likely to tend toward professions or interests that are not money-centered. Grinnell's phenomenal record in producing Peace Corps volunteers, or Wellesley and Smith's Fulbrights, is part of the same phenomenon that would likely produce Ph.d. professorial types.</p>
<p>What the numbers show are the capacity for faculty to clone themselves. This is a GOOD thing at LACs, because it reflect the reality that all the energy is directed at undergrads, whereas at similar selective uni's, much of that energy and mentoring would be directed at graduate students. </p>
<p>So, yes, in the main, I think folks get better educational value at a LAC than a comparable university, but the data, while valid, may tell you less than meets the eye.</p>
<p>The numbers I posted were based on the number of actual graduates of each college. So the graduation rates don't enter into it.</p>
<p>I do think that self-selection enters into it. At any college, you will have "x" percentage of students that are reasonably serious about academics. I suspect that "x" is a larger percentage at many LACs.</p>
<p>I don't think that the theory of higher percentages for law school or med school is the explanation as many of the top LACs have double-digit rates of graduates going to law, biz, and med school.</p>
<p>I think I counted about 78 history and social science graduates of the class of 2005 @ Reed
That would be anthroplogy-Economics- Political Science and History. Her friends that have degrees in those fields are indeed going on to gradual school.
about 75 2005 graduates are in mathematics and Natural sciences
This included Biology, Chemistry, Biochemistry and molecular biology, Physics and Mathematics
Most of her friends in these fields are planning on gradual school but want to work for a while to get a better idea of what their focus will be.
There are about 400 give or take a few in the graduating class</p>
<p>It's not just social sciences. Here's the list of overall PhDs and doctoral degrees per 1000 graduates. Some of these numbers are astonishing: sustained rates of 100 to 200+ PhDs per 1000 graduates.</p>
<hr>
<p>Number of PhDs per 1000 graduates </p>
<p>Academic field: ALL </p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads, multiplied by 1000 </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period<br>
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law. </p>
<p>1 California Institute of Technology 358
2 Harvey Mudd College 247
3 Swarthmore College 211
4 Reed College 199
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 183
6 Carleton College 168
7 Bryn Mawr College 158
8 Oberlin College 157
9 University of Chicago 153
10 Yale University 145
11 Princeton University 143
12 Harvard University 143
13 Grinnell College 141
14 Haverford College 138
15 Pomona College 138
16 Rice University 131
17 Williams College 127
18 Amherst College 124
19 Stanford University 114
20 Kalamazoo College 113
21 Wesleyan University 110
22 St John's College (both campus) 106
23 Brown University 106
24 Wellesley College 104
25 Earlham College 100
26 Beloit College 96
27 Lawrence University 95
28 Macalester College 93
29 Cornell University, All Campuses 90
30 Bowdoin College 90
31 Mount Holyoke College 89
32 Smith College 89
33 Vassar College 88
34 Case Western Reserve University 87
35 Johns Hopkins University 87
36 St Olaf College 87
37 Hendrix College 87
38 Hampshire College 86
39 Trinity University 85
40 Knox College 85
41 Duke University 85
42 Occidental College 84
43 University of Rochester 83
44 College of Wooster 83
45 Barnard College 83
46 Bennington College 82
47 Columbia University in the City of New York 81
48 Whitman College 80
49 University of California-Berkeley 79
50 College of William and Mary 79</p>
<p>51 Carnegie Mellon University 78
52 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 78
53 Brandeis University 77
54 Dartmouth College 76
55 Wabash College 75
56 Bates College 75
57 Davidson College 75
58 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 72
59 Franklin and Marshall College 72
60 Fisk University 71
61 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 71
62 University of California-San Francisco 68
63 Allegheny College 68
64 Furman University 66
65 University of Pennsylvania 65
66 Washington University 65
67 Bard College 65
68 Northwestern Univ 64
69 Rhodes College 64
70 Agnes Scott College 63
71 Spelman College 63
72 Antioch University, All Campuses 62
73 Kenyon College 62
74 University of Dallas 62
75 Ripon College 61
76 Colorado College 61
77 Bethel College (North Newton, KS) 61
78 Hamilton College 60
79 Goshen College 60
80 Middlebury College 60
81 Erskine College 60
82 University of the South 59
83 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 58
84 Drew University 58
85 Wake Forest University 58
86 Tougaloo College 58
87 Goucher College 58
88 Chatham College 57
89 Cooper Union 57
90 Alfred University, Main Campus 57
91 Tufts University 57
92 University of California-Santa Cruz 56
93 Colgate University 56
94 Colby College 55
95 Bucknell University 54
96 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 54
97 Concordia Teachers College 54
98 University of Virginia, Main Campus 54
99 Sarah Lawrence College 53
100 Southwestern University 53</p>
<p>I'm saying this tongue-in-cheek. Many a student or admitee to HYPS and Ivies will say that the PhD production is high because these kids at LACs don't have the same opportunities and can't get the same high-flying jobs that kids from HYPS and ivies (e.g Wharton at Penn) get.</p>
<p>They might say that, but it's interesting that most of the schools in the Ivy League athletic conference are consistently among the top per capita PhD producers across a wide range of fields. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton produce a ton of PhDs across the board.</p>
<p>To me, the interesting thing about this list is not the expected names, but the surprises -- schools that are off-the-beaten track or somewhat less selective that are clearly providing a rigorous, academically-oriented college experience.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm not all that surprised but realize that I don't know what explains that trend really. Ideas?
[/quote]
The usual explanation, which I give some credence, is that LAC's in general encourage students to do independent research and writing, sometimes at a level that's comparable to what students encounter in graduate school. I know a few students from my own undergrad institution for example who sailed through their PhD programs in 3-4 years because their primary socialization in their field of interest was so strong.</p>
<p>I suspect there are other important factors, however, including "selection" in addition to "socialization," since the leading LAC's in PhD production are also known to attract students with a certain intellectual bent.</p>
<p>"To me, the interesting thing about this list is not the expected names, but the surprises -- schools that are off-the-beaten track or somewhat less selective that are clearly providing a rigorous, academically-oriented college experience. "</p>
<p>Not to knock PhD's, but you would be very underwhelmed by the rigor of many doctorate programs. You cannot compare a PhD in Classics or Archeology or Electrical Engineering from a top 50 university to those offered by some "diploma mill" schools which cater to Elementary Ed, Counseling, and the like. Many of these PhD's exist because of the Ed industries insistence on advanced degrees in order to jump to a higher pay scale in some school systems... so the schools comply and in order to meet demand, offer a doctorate. My SIL just completed a doctorate in what, as she can best describe, is "K-8 Gym and recreation", done mostly by email with a third rate thesis advisor. It didn't cost her much; it will pay out in a year; we get to call her Doctor. Not a bad deal, but even she doesn't pretend it had academic rigor.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I don't think the distinction between sciences and social sciences is that great in terms of how much emphasis they put on research. I emphasized independent research for a reason: it's not just being in a lab doing exercises that are set out for you, or being in the library or on-line doing research and writing that's been assigned to you; rather, what's important is that you are given a lot more opportunity and encouragement to define the problem, design the project, and produce the result at a typical small college than at a typical large one. (Obviously, this is a very rough division: students in honors programs at the large universities are given more flexibility and opportunity for self-directed work as well as direct contact with faculty.)</p>
<p>One other factor not yet mentioned: Could it be that LAC faculty encourage students to go on to graduate school more often than university faculty? </p>
<p>Department size factors in here: at a university, it's less likely that you will take a large number of classes in your major with the same professor, simply because the faculty and course offerings are larger. There are also more students so it is harder to stand out in the crowd and attract a faculty mentor who encourages you towards graduate school.</p>
<p>At an LAC, on the other hand, department sizes, student enrollment, and course offerings are smaller. You are more likely to get to know your professors on a personal level as it is more likely you will take more than one class with a particular faculty member. There are also fewer students overall so it is easier to stand out in the crowd and develop a mentoring relationship with a faculty member who encourages you to consider graduate school as a valid option. Students may also tend to see professor more as role models at LACs because they know them more intimately. If your role model talks up doctorate programs when you're over at their house or hanging out in their office or eating with them in the cafeteria, wouldn't you be more likely to seriously consider them? Just a thought.</p>
<p>I still think much of this is overreading. Take students with the same SAT scores at the honors colleges at the better state universities and compare them with those at the LACs, and then there is closer to being a fair comparison.</p>
<p>And for many desirable fields - business, social work, teaching, accounting, nursing, and engineering to name six - Ph.D.s are not the desirable terminal degree. But these are fields into which LAC professors can't clone themselves.</p>
<p>One other consideration - related to Mackinaw's suggestion that there may be some sort of socialization involved. Take a look at the top 30 schools of proportional doctorate production:</p>
<p>1 California Institute of Technology 358
2 Harvey Mudd College 247
3 Swarthmore College 211
4 Reed College 199
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 183
6 Carleton College 168
7 Bryn Mawr College 158
8 Oberlin College 157
9 University of Chicago 153
10 Yale University 145
11 Princeton University 143
12 Harvard University 143
13 Grinnell College 141
14 Haverford College 138
15 Pomona College 138
16 Rice University 131
17 Williams College 127
18 Amherst College 124
19 Stanford University 114
20 Kalamazoo College 113
21 Wesleyan University 110
22 St John's College (both campus) 106
23 Brown University 106
24 Wellesley College 104
25 Earlham College 100
26 Beloit College 96
27 Lawrence University 95
28 Macalester College 93
29 Cornell University, All Campuses 90
30 Bowdoin College 90</p>
<p>Nearly all of these schools share several characteristics: They attract smart students to begin with, they place a LARGE emphasis on "learning for learning's sake" and academic inquiry in their undergraduate curriculum, and many of them also require an undergraduate research project in ALL departments as a graduation requirement. I would also venture to say that nearly every school on this list has a strong undergraduate advising system. I also find it interesting that, with the exception of Cornell, all of these schools - whether university or LAC - have a relatively small undergraduate population.</p>
<p>Mini and Mack, It would be interesting to get some specific figures for honors colleges at large public universities.</p>
<p>I agree. This is one of the major flaws of the major rankings, that they don't look at the experiences and outcomes of students in residential colleges and honors colleges. I know that at my own university these can come close to what I experienced at an LAC. Published figures like average class size, and so on, just don't tell the honors/residential college student anything. So students and parents who are scouting out schools have to try to gather this kind of information directly from visits or other sources.</p>
<p>Look what happens if you look at origins of doctoral degrees in social services:</p>
<ol>
<li>Long Island University, All Campuses 1 </li>
<li>Talladega College<br></li>
<li>Sarah Lawrence College<br></li>
<li>Goucher College </li>
<li>Blackburn College<br></li>
<li>Lane College<br></li>
<li>Saint Mary College<br></li>
<li>Morris Brown College </li>
<li>Columbia College<br></li>
<li>Barnard College</li>
</ol>
<p>whats social services/ social work? Nursing?</p>
<p>Blossom:</p>
<p>To address your hypothesis about "cheap" doctoral degrees in education fields, here is the list for all fields excluding education-related fields.</p>
<h2>I don't see much difference. A few of the HBCs (Tugaloo, Fisk, Spelman) drop down out of the top 100 and along with some similarly minor reshuffling.</h2>
<p>Number of PhDs per 1000 graduates </p>
<p>Academic field: ALL FIELDS EXCEPT EDUCATION </p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads, multiplied by 1000 </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period<br>
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law. </p>
<p>1 California Institute of Technology 358
2 Harvey Mudd College 246
3 Swarthmore College 204
4 Reed College 196
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 181
6 Carleton College 159
7 Bryn Mawr College 151
8 Oberlin College 147
9 University of Chicago 146
10 Yale University 142
11 Princeton University 139
12 Harvard University 138
13 Haverford College 134
14 Grinnell College 132
15 Pomona College 130
16 Rice University 127
17 Williams College 123
18 Amherst College 117
19 Stanford University 106
20 Kalamazoo College 104
21 Wesleyan University 104
22 St John's College (both campus) 99
23 Brown University 99
24 Wellesley College 96
25 Earlham College 90
26 Lawrence University 87
27 Macalester College 86
28 Cornell University, All Campuses 86
29 Beloit College 85
30 Johns Hopkins University 85
31 Bowdoin College 84
32 Hampshire College 83
33 Case Western Reserve University 82
34 Mount Holyoke College 81
35 Vassar College 81
36 Duke University 80
37 University of Rochester 79
38 Smith College 79
39 St Olaf College 77
40 Columbia University in the City of New York 76
41 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 76
42 Occidental College 75
43 College of Wooster 75
44 Carnegie Mellon University 75
45 Barnard College 75
46 Trinity University 74
47 University of California-Berkeley 74
48 Knox College 74
49 Whitman College 74
50 Hendrix College 73
51 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 72
52 Bennington College 72
53 Dartmouth College 72
54 Davidson College 72
55 Brandeis University 71
56 Wabash College 70
57 Bates College 70
58 College of William and Mary 69
59 Franklin and Marshall College 68
60 University of Pennsylvania 61
61 Bard College 60
62 Washington University 60
63 Allegheny College 60
64 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 60
65 Rhodes College 59
66 Northwestern Univ 59
67 Kenyon College 58
68 Furman University 57
69 Colorado College 57
70 Cooper Union 56
71 University of California-San Francisco 56
72 Hamilton College 56
73 University of the South 56
74 Middlebury College 56
75 University of Dallas 55
76 Drew University 54
77 Agnes Scott College 54
78 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 54
79 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 53
80 Tufts University 53
81 Ripon College 52
82 University of California-Santa Cruz 52
83 Colgate University 52
84 Wake Forest University 51
85 University of California-San Diego 51
86 Goucher College 50
87 Goshen College 50
88 Bethel College (North Newton, KS) 50
89 University of Virginia, Main Campus 50
90 Centre College 50
91 Bucknell University 50
92 Colby College 49
93 Trinity College (Hartford, CT) 49
94 Alfred University, Main Campus 49
95 Antioch University, All Campuses 48
96 Sarah Lawrence College 48
97 University of Notre Dame 48
98 Colorado School of Mines 47
99 Hope College 47
100 Southwestern University 47</p>
<p>"whats social services/ social work? Nursing?"</p>
<p>I think it is social work and counseling Ph.Ds.</p>
<p>At any rate, I don't think it matters much, as the Ph.D's are not, in most cases, the terminal working degrees, nor the most desired ones. The important thing to note is that this where a far larger field that students majoring in social sciences as undergrads will be headed and, hence, just as easily a gauge of undergraduate quality. (But students who head into these fields will, on the whole, come from poorer families.)</p>