True… and a person who buys a powerball lottery ticket that ends up with 4 matching number will get a whole lot more money than someone who has only 3 matching numbers …but that says nothing about the respective IQ’s or abilities of the ticket holders.
I do agree that if someone is counting on getting a merit scholarship that is strictly based on test score, and if that person scores within spitting range of the cutoff, it’s worth boning up on the test to retake for a higher score.
Precisely because the tests are not a measure of IQ. If they did measure IQ, then it would be incredibly difficult or anyone to increase their score beyond the range of the test’s margin of error.
I have a niece with a GPA of 3.5 and an ACT of 22. Is she a poor test taker or not college ready? Would you take on debt to send her to a test optional school or insist she spends one to two years at a community college?
The amount of innumeracy displayed in the last 10-20 posts is going to give me a brain hemorrhage. No wonder the average American family lives paycheck to paycheck.
The College Board should make a test out of the the last 18 posts. Kids who can spot 12 major reasoning errors in 15 minutes automatically get a 2400.
@MaterS …well this is anecdotal, but I have a close high school friend who made a 22 on his ACT, always had an A-B, rare C average. He did 1 year at a community college and then ended up going to a solid state school, makes $105K currently, has a graduate degree and is happy with his life and career. I would say he did fine in life.
The score on the first standardized test my dyslexic, dyscalculic, and dysgraphic daughter ever took was a whopping 8th percentile for reading and the same for math. She was 9-years-old. Did that mean her future was carved in stone? That she was destined to be one of the lowest performing students in her age group without much hope of future academic or career success? Should we have allowed our public school to place her on the remedial track and accepted the goals they set for her that worked toward average at a glacially slow pace? We wanted far more for her.
I think the reality is that most public schools don’t have the resources to teach students like my daughter. I have no doubt that many students like her reach high school behind their peers in both academics and test taking skills, but I don’t think that means they’re less capable of learning. However, you can’t make up years of inadequate academics with a few months of test prep. I don’t think that a student with a 500 math SAT score is incapable of learning how to convert pounds to kilos or that a student with a 550 verbal SAT score can’t discuss Russian literature intelligently. My 9-year-old couldn’t add or subtract accurately and she was still reading at a first grade level, but she knew who Lysander and Hermia were and she had a passing familiarity with Monet and Michelangelo. Unfortunately, neither ever seemed to come up on standardized tests.
@ucbalumnus Again, I agree that there can be variations in the test scores and that they are not a perfect representation of a person’s achievement level or IQ. I also agree that such tests are far better predictors when applied to large numbers of people rather than a single person.
@calmom As I mentioned before, the SAT at one time was almost a pure IQ test. The test was changed to add an element of achievement measurement, but it still correlates very strongly with IQ tests, and as such it is an IQ test in and of itself, albeit an imperfect one. Also, I think IQ can be raised just a bit through lots of reading and academic study, but few people are willing to do this.
@austinmshauri No pen and paper test is going to give anything approaching a valid IQ or even achievement measurement for a child with dyslexia or dysgraphica. And a third-grade assessment of the type you describe is designed to reveal problems in time to correct them. A high school SAT or ACT test is designed to measure a student’s ability to do college work, and they do a pretty good job of it, although again I note that they are imperfect.
On a personal level, I have a nephew who took the ACT eight times. Most times he had trouble finishing it because he could not read fast enough. His first score as a sophomore was 24; his final score was 34. If someone can’t read fast enough to finish the test sections, their score may not reflect their level of achievement or ability. But of course, college requires a lot of reading, and the ability to read fast is important.
The comments I have had have been in response to those who suggest the tests are completely meaningless. They aren’t; they have tremendous predictive power, which is more evident when used for large numbers of people. That said, no one is consigned to failure in life by an average or below average test score. And I’ve repeatedly said that a hard worker with a mediocre ACT can outperform a slacker with a much higher one.
The problem with the SAT is that it uses academic disciplines to test intelligence. The test would be even more accurate if everyone went into it having had the same math and English instruction. But if a student’s 8th grade geometry teacher got sick and the sub taught nothing for almost 4 months of that year, then using geometry to test that student’s aptitude is not going to produce an accurate result (unless the student had access to extensive tutoring, which is a socio-economic factor).
your point is well taken, even if your example is not. A 8th grader taking Geometry is 2+ years ahead in math. (The SAT is designed with the idea that the masses will take Geom in 10th grade.)
@TheGFG Just for the record, the SAT is not supposed to test intelligence. It used to, but they added an element of achievement to it, and I think they want people to believe it is a pure achievement test, which it is not.
Let’s face it, admitting people to college based solely on IQ scores rather than achievement grates people the wrong way; that’s why they added the element of achievement testing to the SAT. BUT, by making the SAT a partial achievement test that have ensured that highly intelligent students in poor schools won’t have much of a chance.
I don’t know the answer to this, just pointing it out.
Even three decades ago, the SAT was not what one would make if one were attempting to make a pure IQ test. The verbal section then was mostly a test of English vocabulary. The math section depended on knowledge of high school algebra and geometry. In other words, there was a substantial component of educational achievement built into the results along with whatever the effect of IQ was.
That was a myth or assumption put forth by the test’s designers, who also asserted that it would not be possible to improve scores through study or prep. Stanley Kaplan proved that assertion wrong in 1938. If the SAT had ever been an IQ test, it was a poorly designed one.
As far as using it as a modern day proxy for an IQ test - that can’t work in an environment where students are prepped for the test. And my guess is that students who attend elite academic magnet or private schools are probably continuously prepped, probably with curriculum designed to be test-focused from middle school on. That’s as simple as teaching SAT vocabulary words beginning in 6th grade; or tailoring a math curriculum to include many SAT-type questions or problems.
It might also be a reasonably good testing instrument at the mid-range level geared to students who are likely to attend mid-range colleges. That is, it’s probably true that students who can’t score above 450 or so on the SAT sub tests probably will struggle at college. But even if you were to take two students who were unprepped, one who had per-test scores of 650 and another who had per-test scores of 750… you probably would not see a marked difference in college performance that could be correlated to the test. That’s because it does not require genius-level intelligence to master college level material.
It’s really sad to read a post like the one from @MaterS above, who is doubtful of the educational prospects of an above-average niece – 3.5 GPA and 22 ACT, which correlates to 62% percentile. Obviously that student has the capacity to do well at college, though of course she is not going to find herself at Harvard. And as far as statistical predictions go… that student is very likely to maintain a 3.5 GPA in college. That anyone would discount the prospects of a student whose score are well above median says more about the intelligence of the adults who put faith in the tests than it does about the students.
Your guess would be quite incorrect and to an extent, putting the cart before the horse at least as applied to the public STEM-centered magnets like the one I attended in NYC.
Especially considering your guess ignores another factor in why students did well. In the case of many classmates…especially recent immigrants with some exposure to their origin nation’s K-8 school systems, it was because the math education offered in public schools is often far more advanced than what’s offered in all but the most accelerated programs here in the US.
A good illustration of this is an older HS classmate who came over to the US in 5th grade and found he learned nothing new in math or science until well into his freshman year at our HS because the math covered in a regular Taiwan public school* was more than enough to carry him over even on the most advanced math/science courses offered in the public school from 6th grade until well into his freshman year at our HS. Similar accounts could also be had from students originating from Central and Eastern European countries as well.
He also took the magnet HS exam stone cold on a lark so he could have an excuse to tag along with friends taking the exam so they could all hang out together for the rest of the afternoon/evening in Manhattan after the exam. No preparation at all. Same also applied with his older brother who didn’t have a chance to provide pointers on the exam as he didn’t have plans to take the exam until the night before.
Also, once one is in a public magnet like the one I attended, most classes went well-beyond teaching to the test like the SAT. To be quite frank…most alums/students of public magnets like the one I attended would find the notion that our HSs teach to the test and are continuously prepped to be quite insulting.
Especially those from my generation and earlier where admitting one has done extensive prepping beyond a month or two of familiarization of the exam format and/or getting one’s English RC/vocab up to speed if one’s a recent immigrant from a non-English speaking country would be in our HS’s campus culture an open admission one’s very dim.
As for private schools, most of the ones I know…including some elites younger relatives and a few classmates’ siblings attended don’t have a student body who were “strongly prepped” or emphasized “teaching to the test”. I find that especially amusing considering several quite respectable private schools I know of have schoolwide SAT averages far below those of my public magnet or that of others like it like TJSST.
It really depends on the private school concerned even if we limit them to the respectable/elite ones.
They don't usually start separating students onto different academic tracks until the end of middle school and the curriculum and funding is much more centralized. In short...there isn't nearly as much of a difference between the quality/curriculum of one neighborhood public school from another to anywhere the same extent you'd find here in the US.
“What happens to these students when they graduate from college or professional schools? What happens when they have to take the medical or dental board exams, bar exam, nursing board exams, CPA exam etc.?”
Many of them pass. Most licensing exams are pass/fail, and are designed so that most people who successfully complete the training can and do pass them. If the bar exam were scored like the ACT, both a 22 and a 36 would be a pass.
A few years ago, my large public university analyzed the 6-year graduation rate (i.e., graduation within 6 years of first enrollment) as a function of the students’ ACT composite scores, in 1 point increments at the margin. The overall 6-year graduation rate was about 80% of Harvard’s 4-year graduation rate. Students with scores of 24 and above showed no differences in graduation rates that were correlated with the scores. As I recall, at 23, the 6-year graduation rate started to drop off. At 22, the graduation rate was definitely lower than for 24 and above.
It is possible that the graduation rates for students who had scores below 24 were actually determined entirely by SES status, since financial reasons drive many decisions to drop out. But I would be somewhat careful about the choice of university for a student with an ACT composite of 22. No reason that the person cannot succeed in many good colleges, though.
Happykid’s HS GPA was right about where your niece’s is, but she never took the SAT or the ACT. If we’d had the money to cover our EFC, she would have had more options because of her GPA, and she’d have taken the ACT and/or SAT if they were required for admission. Our EFC was unaffordable, so she needed to start at the local community college. There she applied for, and received, a two year merit scholarship for tuition and fees (minimum requirement 3.0, two essays, letter of recommendation, no test scores needed). She did very well there and at the state U she transferred to. She’s out in the world now, doing well in her chosen field.
What do the niece’s classroom teachers have to say about her performance? Do they think she’s ready for college? If they are familiar with the demands of more than one college/university, do they think she’s ready for X, but not for Y, or for a major in W, but not in Z?
Has she ever been flagged for a learning difference before this? If so, is she receiving any services now that would be easy/difficult/impossible to replicate at the colleges/universities on her current application list?
How much money has the niece’s family set aside for her education? How much can be made available from current income?
How good are the community colleges where she lives? Do any of the CCs in her state have on-campus housing so she has more options than just the ones she can commute to? Do any of the CCs have scholarships available?
ACT score is correlated with many factors, which can make it difficult to draw such conclusions. For example, what if a student has a high HS GPA with a rigorous schedule and a high SES, does he still have a low grad rate with a 22 ACT, or does his grad rate more follow his GPA and SES than his ACT score?
The study at http://www.heri.ucla.edu/DARCU/CompletingCollege2011.pdf looked at the relative contribution of test score, HS GPA, SES, and many other factors for over 200,000 college students at hundreds of institutions . They found that with a full model that includes academic characteristics, SES/financial characteristics, major/college characteristics, and time spent on various activities during HS they could explain 26.9% of variance in 6-year grad rate with 71.4% successful predictions. When they excluded test scores from the model, the prediction dropped by only 0.1% from explaining 26.9% of variance to explaining 26.8% of variance, with both successfully predicting graduating for 71.4% of students… essentially no difference. Some of the stronger positive predictors of graduation in 6 years were college college cost (higher is better), self rating of drive to achieve, and experience using Internet for HS assignments. Some of the stronger negative predictors of graduation were planning to live off campus (instead of dorm), planning to transfer, and planning to work full time while in college.
Absolutely right, Data10, that ACT score is correlated with a number of factors–and I mentioned that it is possible that the lower graduation rates of students with ACT scores below 24 might have been determined entirely by SES status.
On the other hand, a study that covers “hundreds of institutions” will obscure the fact that the 6-year graduation rates at public universities in my state vary by a factor of 2.
But the point is, you can’t draw a valid conclusion from looking at one factor in isolation, especially when other studies suggest that there are other, far more significant factors to be considered.
But I think more important is the essential question framed by @MaterS – is it worth taking on debt to send a kid with an above-average standardized test score and well above average grades to college? (With the implication that the test score is the determining factor). And I think that is about as wrong-headed an approach as one could possibly take. Is a 4 year college supposed to be only for the top 20% of students? Does GPA suddenly become insignificant because of an arbitrary number on a test that doesn’t even purport to tests whether the student has gained the basis knowledge that we expect of high school grads? Isn’t the far more important question to look at that students goals and study habits? If she is a responsible kid who is serious about school, keeps on track, gets her assignments done on time without prodding from the parents, and has sustained a B+ average through high school… and if she has college goals consistent with her abilities – what good reason would there not to be to send her to college? She may be a lot better bet than a sibling or cousin who aces the test and whizzes through school with A’s, but lacks discipline and motivation.
It’s bad enough that so many colleges premise their merit money decisions on a test score; should the student also face the same barriers from her own parents?
