I can't Afford the Ivy League.

Paying for College
1

<p>So here's the deal:</p>

<p>my parent's are divorced, my mom's income is very middle class, around 60k a year. </p>

<p>My dad is the CEO of a hospital in NJ, and makes a large 6-digit income.</p>

<p>Dartmouth's offering 21k in grants, loans, etc, and we'd have to pay 28k.</p>

<p>My dad won't do it, even though I think that he can--he's just cheap. It's frustrating, I really want to take the opportunities that I've been given.</p>

<p>My mom just can't do it.</p>

<p>Sooo....bottom line is, we can't afford it. This sucks.</p>

<p>Same thing goes for Cornell. </p>

<p>:(</p>

2

<p>You can appeal to have your non-custodial parent's information waved. Do you seriously have no savings for college though? I'd think with a college fund you'd be able to afford that...</p>

3

<p>Probably because if they gave you more money then everyone's parents would say no, I'm not paying , give us more money too.</p>

4

<p>Is there any way that you can negotiate with your dad to pay him back? What about your other relatives-- could they loan or give you money or intervene with your dad?</p>

5

<p>Yeah, we've tried appealing to Dartmouth, but (and I mean I completely understand) they stood firm that both parents are morally responsible for paying their fair share of their child's college education.</p>

<p>What my parents (especially my mom) believe is that why should you spend guru bucks on Cornell or Dartmouth when I can go to UF for around 5k a year, or even UNC, whose expenses aren't that bad, and get "virtually the same education." Is this really a viable case....</p>

<p>I mean, I've already bought my Cornell and Dartmouth t-shirts... :(</p>

<p>It's an awkward situation. Because of the divorce I don't really really know my dad that well. We moved to FL when I was in 3rd grade, and saw him around once a year for a few days. So I've tried asking him how much he IS willing to pay for, and I never get a straight answer. ARGH! I only have 2 weeks left guys....</p>

<p>AND he was late sending in his paperwork for aid for Cornell, so I have to sit and wait and pray for some extra cash to fall from the sky.</p>

<p>Northstar: My mom feels that it's really not my aunts, uncles, etc. responsibility to help pay for my schooling....I am ALL FOR the money, and they might help a bit, but not 28k bit. </p>

<p>My family can easily afford around 10k, like that would be no big deal, that's what my brother pays who goes to Rollins College. So I'm pretty much stuck to that standard.....unless I can get my dad to chip in some extra money to help pay for an Cornell or Dartmouth education.</p>

<p>I mean, don't get me wrong, the Gators rock, but I was really hoping to make this work, you know?</p>

6

<p>jgonzo,
I am very sorry for the situation that you're in. The only encouragement I can offer is that if you're good enough now to get into such competitive colleges, if you have to go to UF and work to your potential, you should be able to go to top universities for grad school. Depending on what field you decide to enter and what you major in in grad school, you may know that you'll have the income to cover any loans you would need to take out or you may get fellowships that cover all or most of the costs.</p>

7

<p>it's one thing when you can't afford it, but it's another when you can but won't</p>

8

<p>jgonzo -- all I can tell you is that you are in good company. As a single parent, I think that the financial aid system really discriminates against divorced families. Statistics show that it is very common for the divorced mom who retains custody to suffer financially (trying to juggle job & child care) whereas the divorced, noncustodial dad makes out like a bandit, free to pursue his career, with his financial obligations to his children limited to a fixed monthly amount - which usually expires when the kids turn 18, just at the time when the mom is faced with college costs. In other words -- from the mom's point of view -- my ex husband stopped paying child support the spring before each of my kid's started college -- less income for me, significantly greater expenses.</p>

<p>I read in another article -- from Pomona -- that in 50% of cases, the divorced dad refuses to cooperate at all in terms of submitting financial information; in those cases, the colleges usually award no financial aid, or at least nothing beyond the federal aid (stafford loan, Pell grant) that the student qualifies for. If the father's whereabouts are known and he has been reasonably reliable in making child care payments along the way, it's next to impossible to convince the financial aid office to drop the requirement. </p>

<p>I personally think its a dead wrong approach: I think that the colleges should look into the length of separation and divorce and at some point quit treating the child of divorce as if he has two parents, because in most cases he doesn't. Yes, he has two biological parents -- but typically there is one person, usually the mom, doing all the parenting -- and the other biological parent, usually the father, has been acting like a more distant relative, such as an uncle -- remembering to send a gift or card on birthdays, occasionally visiting, etc. -- but really not taking on the responsibility of care or support of the kids he left behind when the marriage dissolved. </p>

<p>I consider myself somewhat fortunate because at least my ex -- who contributes -0- toward the college education of my kids -- doesn't make much money and is willing to let the college look at his tax returns. </p>

<p>I'm sorry that your mom is in a far worse situation -- there simply is no way that she can fill in the gap left by your dad's refusal to contribute. </p>

<p>You can NOT get the "same" education at UF or UNC.... but you CAN get a very good education at those schools, and given the circumstances you are going to have to take advantage of the opportunities that are before you, rather than being distressed over what you cannot afford. It's back to the old Mercedes vs. Honda analogy -- hands down the Mercedes is a better car, but most of us are driving Hondas or Honda-equivalents because that's what we can afford, and we end up getting wherever we need to go. </p>

<p>I would suggest that rather than ask your Dad "how much" he is willing to pay for, and getting the runaround -- call him and ask hims for a specific amount. Is he willing to pay $14K annually, in 2 installments of $7K each. (That would be half of the $28K you need for Dartmouth) Either he says yes, or no. If he says yes, send him an email to confirm it. </p>

<p>If he says no.... I think you need to move on with your life and face the reality that the elite privates don't particularly like having kids whose parents are divorced. They talk a good game about wanting more diversity, but the reality is that their admissions and financial aid practices are structured to favor intact families with more affluent lifestyles. For example, they will allow a deduction from income for private school tuition for some 6-figure earning family with younger siblings attending $20K a year private schools. </p>

<p>If it is any consolation, keep in mind that attending Dartmouth would mean 4 years of continued aggravation in dealing with your dad. You won't be the only student at UF or UNC who has turned down an Ivy for financial reasons.</p>

9

<p>Or in our case, the Dad doing all of the college support, because Mom took 16 years of child support then bailed. Loose the broad brush Calmom. Every family situation is different. If judges would quit cutting fathers out of their kids lives and giving them no control at all, just a bill and hard feelings while Mom moves the kid 2000 miles away, many of them would be more than happy to involved daily and provide support beyond the child support. Most mothers don't want the ex involved daily or even weekly and lobby against any form of joint custody.</p>

10

<p>It is unfortunate when divorces cause this kinds of financial aid stress for college. BUT...it is well known and well publicized that if you do not want to use the non-custodial parents income and assets as part of the finaid calculation, you should be applying to FAFSA only schools which do NOT require an ounce of info from the non-custodial parent. I will add...I know kids who would give their eye tooth to be able to attend UF or UNC.</p>

11

<p>Thank you guys for all your input, I really appreciate everything. If all else fails, I know I can rely on CC'ers to help me understand the often-frustrating college process</p>

<p>I talked to Cornell today, they said my financial aid award letter would be in the mail yesterday, so I should have it by thursday...I'll let you guys know what happens.</p>

<p>Calmom: You completely understand, and I thank you so much for that.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
the divorced, noncustodial dad makes out like a bandit, free to pursue his career, with his financial obligations to his children limited to a fixed monthly amount - which usually expires when the kids turn 18, just at the time when the mom is faced with college costs

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Keeping in mind that I am AGREEING that it is grossly unfair to the student when parents won't pay (so don't attack me, please!), I just want to point out that no parents, whether divorced or not, are obligated to support their adult children.</p>

<p>So your frustrations apply equally to married parents who won't pay.</p>

13

<p>Yes it does apply to married parents who won't pay-- but at least the child of married parents has had regular contact with both and has had the benefit of growing up with whatever lifestyle their income can support. It can be very different for the child of a divorce who may have only marginal contact with the noncustodial parent and no direct benefit from that parent's income. </p>

<p>In this case, the parent who has had the major involvement in raising the kid wants to pay , but is being asked to pay more than she can afford based on income received by someone else. At this point she's got no claim to his income and doesn't have the kind of relationship that lends itself to reasonable discussion.</p>

14

<p>"I personally think its a dead wrong approach: I think that the colleges should look into the length of separation and divorce and at some point quit treating the child of divorce as if he has two parents, because in most cases he doesn't. "</p>

<p>Sadly, the problem with this is that it would give the selfish parent who refuses to help with college or to even fill out the financial aid paperwork more reason to opt out of being involved. Indeed, some parents who might have been willing to do the paperwork and to give some money toward college might decide to do their child the "favor" of being estranged and not providing any financial support for college.</p>

<p>It's probable now that some dads who would wish to take this route might be disouraged by the didsapproval of society or their close relatives. However, if colleges would be willing to provide financial aid for their kid based on only the finances of the parent taking care of their child, the parents who are selfish, but want to not seem as selfish as they are, might step out of the picture since the college would be picking up the slack.</p>

<p>I have a lot of sympathy and empathy for students whose dads won't contribute. My dad was like that even though he lived in our home, was married to my mother, and also was a dentist. Unfortunately, he was a selfish dad who despite living with us was about as uninvolved as he could be. He didn't eat with us.He didn't have any involvement with our schooling.He didn't even bother to be around for most of Christmas Day and Thanksgiving. Apparently, he was very involved, however, with female friends who took lots of his time and probably also took his money.</p>

<p>I was able to go to college on a need-based scholarship package (including loans and work study and summer jobs) that apparently was based only on my mother's small secretarial work. Originally, the college offered me no financial aid. However, my mother called the financial aid office and sobbed on the phone as she explained our family situation.</p>

<p>I think that the fact that I also was working 20+ hours a week during the school year (including cleaning a woman's house), and had written about those experiences in my essay caused the financial aid officers to believe that we weren't trying to pull some kind of scam. </p>

<p>Still, I am embarassed to this day at how my mom had to beg for aid and reveal our sad personal life, and I am very grateful that the college gave me financial aid.</p>

15

<p>Wow, Northstarmom, I had to do that! For Chicago, I had to write this long, embarrassing narrative for them, basically explaining about how my ex-husband stopped contacting the children, threw son out, won't respond to his email messages, just horrible things that have really hurt the children, and the financial stuff. And after sending all that and basically begging, their response was, "Well, we need a third party letter corroborating this." Since my son doesn't talk about this painful personal thing with teachers or people like that, we were completely at a loss.</p>

16

<p>There should be a procedure in place to have these issues reviewed by a neutral third party. Obviously the college's incentive is to err on the side of giving to little aid to admitees. What if you could appeal financial aid decisions to an arbitrator? Sort of like the NYC Transit Union can submit its contract to arbitration.</p>

<p>If colleges are truly interested in meeting peoples' needs, they shouldn't be afraid to have their financial aid decisions reviewed by a neutral third party.</p>

<p>JMHO.</p>

17

<p>Is ROTC an option?</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
I was able to go to college on a need-based scholarship package (including loans and work study and summer jobs) that apparently was based only on my mother's small secretarial work. Originally, the college offered me no financial aid. However, my mother called the financial aid office and sobbed on the phone as she explained our family situation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>NMom,</p>

<p>No offense, but I find your perspective interesting. You have chastised other kids on these boards who are disappointed that they can't attend the school of their choice due to their parents' finances or unwillingness to pay, but when it comes to you, special treatment is just fine for a dentist's daughter.</p>

<p>Perhaps you can provide them with some sob-story tips. They were not offered financial aid packages such as yours.</p>

19

<p>"Since my son doesn't talk about this painful personal thing with teachers or people like that, we were completely at a loss."</p>

<p>The same thing would have happened to me if Harvard had asked for third party corroboration. My mother's parents didn't even know about the dysfunction in our household. Indeed, they thought my father was a very nice family man.</p>

<p>I think what did help me was my documented history of working clerical and menial jobs during the school year and summer, something that simply wouldn't have been done by a dentist's daughter unless something was seriously wrong in the family.</p>

<p>"No offense, but I find your perspective interesting. You have chastised other kids on these boards who are disappointed that they can't attend the school of their choice due to their parents' finances or unwillingness to pay, but when it comes to you, special treatment is just fine for a dentist's daughter."</p>

<p>Back when I got special treatment, I was working 20 hours a week as a store clerk and also was spending half a day a week cleaning some woman's home. I also worked 60 hours during the summer, took out loans, worked during the school year in college, including during vacations. I was doing everything within my power to get the $ for college. </p>

<p>I am very grateful to Harvard for giving me scholarships. I know that they didn't have to do it. If they had chosen not to (none of the other colleges that I was accepted to gave me any financial aid), I would have had to deal with the chips the way they fell. It wasn't the colleges' fault that my dad didn't really care about me, and it wasn't the college's responsibility to fill that gap. I also fully understand that if colleges routinely helped people the way that I was helped, many people would take advantage of the situation.</p>

<p>Back when I applied to college, there were relatively few students in the kind of situation i was in. There were fewer divorces, for instance. Times have changed, and I imagine that I would not get the benefit of the doubt if I were a current college applicant. Too many people have taken financial advantage of colleges, so it's likely that colleges don't make the kind of exceptions now that they made for me.</p>

<p>I also continue to feel lucky that in our country, we have many college options even for well off people whose parents refuse to provide financial support. No, such students may not be able to go to their first, second or third choice colleges, and that certainly is disappointing. However, they can go to some college, and they can find a way to go to graduate or professional school and to have productive, successful lives despite the lack of their parent's financial and even emotional support.</p>

20

<p>Fortunately, my children are not in this situation, but I certainly sympathize with the predicatment faced by the OP and both the contributing parent and child when the other parent won't contribute. But from the perspective of the college, it would be administratively difficult to assess the realities of each situation. Moreover, possibilities of evasion and outright fraud would abound.</p>