I heard this this morning

Parents Forum
21

<p>MotherofTwo,
Trust me, I am NOT knocking expensive summer programs and they are certainly NOT seen as a negative in admissions. Both of my children went away every summer for years to expensive summer programs they chose out of love for the activity. Most kids they grew up with in our community were not afforded such opportunities. The colleges do not frown upon these programs (such as your son's CTY) at all. After all, lots of kids in very selective colleges, as my own kids are, were admitted and had attended summer programs of various types. My point is that kids' activities are looked at in context. A kid who wasn't afforded such opportunities isn't going to be frowned upon if he/she babysat for the summer, or some such. </p>

<p>Doubleplay,
I agree that there are LOTS of kids whose parents may be able to afford summer programs but chose to take a local paying job. Summer jobs are looked upon positively as well. There are some kids, however, who HAD to get a summer job and have no other options or opportunities and so the context is looked upon. One is not better than the other but simply informative in looking upon activities in context. </p>

<p>GFG,
I agree upon the notion of whether both parents are working or if one is available after school. In some cases, depending on your location, the availability of a parent after school makes a huge difference in terms of what ECs a student can do...that is definitely the case where I live. My kids had opportunities to do a wealth of ECs that involved a lot of driving and would have been very difficult to participate in had not one of us been available to do that. </p>

<p>I simply think background gives a context. Students aren't accepted or rejected over an evaluation of their background. But the background informs some of the other things on an application. I interviewed someone for admission last week who had lived in many countries due to her mom being in the foreign service. Her background affected several things, including her career interest. </p>

<p>I also think the parents' own education can affect an upbringing and the value put on education and the help/support a student may get in their educational journey. A first generation college student has had a different experience than one from a family where the parents have graduate degrees. One is not preferable over the other but the experiences the student has had would be viewed in the context of their total background....family, community, and school.</p>

22

<p>"I also think there's a difference between a two-income family and a one-income family as far as potential for enrichment for the child--regardless of whether the unemployed parent has a particular degree or not. I'm college-educated but am not working outside the home. Thus, no expensive classes or summer programs for my kids! "</p>

<p>I think a bigger factor would be whether the child is raised in a two-parent or one-parent household because of the time that the child would get to spend with an adult who is able to be focused on them. It's exhausting being a parent, and even more exhausting when one is the only parent and has to parent while working and/or handling other household responsibilities.</p>

<p>I've noticed that when you see info about kids who have achieved at virtually anything -- from kids who are in NHS to SGA officers to kids who are college-bound, there is a higher proportion of such kids who come from two-parent households even from communities in which such situations are relatively rare.</p>

<p>"I also think there's a difference between a two-income family and a one-income family as far as potential for enrichment for the child-"</p>

<p>I know kids in one-income families who have gone to summer programs. What helps, though, is having an educated mom because an educated mom is more likely IMO to spend the time finding programs that are free, etc. Even when I wasn't working, my kids went to summer programs if they wanted to. I scoured the Internet looking for affordable opportunities, and I also helped my kids create some opportunities for themselves. </p>

<p>From what I've seen personally and in terms of research, mothers tend to be more involved in their kids' upbringing and education than are dads.When dads are involved, they tend to be more involved in things like sports. For instance, my husband is a college prof with 2 masters, and is an involved dad and a wonderful mentor to his students. Still, when it comes to things like summer programs, researching colleges, I've done the bulk of the work particularly in taking the initiative to get an early start.</p>

<p>Some research (Sorry, I didn't keep the links, but if you Google the excerpts, you can find the links).</p>

<p>"Higher maternal education improves infant health, as measured by birthweight and gestational age. It also increases the probability that a new mother is married, reduces parity, increases use of prenatal care, and reduces smoking, suggesting that these are important pathways for the ultimate effect on health." One could expect that healthy infants are less likely to have difficulties that result in learning problems. Mothers with fewer kids are more likely to be able to devote more time to each individual kid...."</p>

<p>From another source: "The argument presented here is that parental divorce diminishes the economic and social resources available to children, which in turn has negative consequences for children's educational attainment, marital timing, marital probability, and divorce probability. Based upon a combined sample of national data, for white respondents only, the analysis shows that parental divorce is associated with lower educational attainment and earlier age at marriage for both sexes. Daughters of divorced parents have a higher probability of being divorced. For sons of divorced parents, the probability of ever marrying is lower and of divorcing is higher only if they have lower social class backgrounds."</p>

23

<p>sooz: funny you should mention the after-school EC topic. You are absolutely correct in that children with a parent at home can often do more because of having someone around to drive them places, pick them up after games, etc. But I wonder if when the adcoms weigh that supposed advantage, if they are also calculating the financial disadvantage that might accompany that perk? I do tire of working moms attributing the success of the children of stay-at-home moms as almost a given. Like Johnny does well because his mom is the President of the PTA. Well, Johnny might benefit to a point from the brown-nose effect, but at the end of the day he walks into the classroom alone and takes the SAT's alone.</p>

24

<p>I have often wondered how schools that profess to be "need-blind" treat the education and profession/job of parents. I think that that question does not belong on any college app as it is the student applying that will be attending the college. What difference does it make? The way I see it-college admissions officers can generalize as to fin.aid based on the educaiton level/profession-job that students list on many apps today. They can't take a class full of people needing fin aid. And, I cannot believe that they don't look at this info--it is obviously happening if they are trying to put the students education, EC's, grades, etc into context with regard to parents. Personally, I have thought for some time that the apps at many colleges want to know too much about parents, other schools that the students are applying to, etc . Why can't they just take the info on the student alone? The student (as I have already mentioned) is the person attending college!! Just my two cents!!!</p>

25

<p>The mom's profile and/or role in predicting academic success isn't the only factor.</p>

<p>
[quote]
fathers generally have as much or more impact than mothers on many aspects of their daughters' lives. For example, the father has the greater impact on the daughters' ability to trust, enjoy, and relate well to the males in her life (Erickson, 1998; Flouri, 2005; Kast, 1997; Leonard, 1998). And well-fathered daughters are usually more self confident, more self- reliant, and more successful in school and in their careers than poorly fathered daughters (Lamb, 1997; Morgan & Wilcoxon, 1998; Perkins, 2001). African American daughters benefit in these same ways from having a loving, supportive relationship with their fathers (Barras, 2000; Coley, 2004; Gayles, 1997; Taylor, 2003) Daughters with good relationships with their fathers are also less likely to develop eating disorders (Botta & Dumlao, 2002; Maine, 2004). In short, a father has a far reaching, lifelong impact on his daughter.

[/quote]
</p>

26

<p>"I was joking about the teacher thing. My mom's a teacher and I can definitely respect it as a profession."</p>

<p>Oh, good! Sorry.</p>

27

<p>I agree AL. It's the generalization you mention that makes me nervous. As I already said, adcoms simply can't know enough about a student to accurately judge what a kid's environment did or did not provide him. What if the child of a single, high school drop-out mom had a wonderful mentor and academic helper in a relative (like an aunt or grandmother who cared for the child after school every day) who provided just as much assistance as an educated parent would have? So then the adcoms give the kid credit for overcoming certain obstacles he never really had.</p>

28

<p>I agree with lots of what Northstarmom wrote in post #22. I know my kids benefited because I was available to take them to all their ECs (my hubby kicked in to help as soon as he got back to town after 6 and on weekends). My kids also benefitted in having a parent available who researched things and had the time to get involved to explore opportunities or support various endeavors. I had much more time than my husband had. He is very supportive of our children but I did a lot of the legwork and help on school related matters and summer programs and colleges and what not. My kids often told me that they felt bad for pals at school whose parents had no clue about the college process or couldn't take them to this or that. My kids had some advantages in this way. </p>

<p>notre dame AL....the colleges are not deciding who to admit based on the students' parents. They use that information for context. Just so you know, my kids have parents with graduate degrees and professional jobs and they also get financial aid. My kids certainly earned their grades and are self driven but they also come from a family that values and supports education and is involved every step of the way. There are advantages that way. Lots of kids where we live cannot afford the ECs my kids got to do, nor the summer programs. Lots of kids where we live do not have a parent available who can drive them to the ECs (which involve a lot of driving and hours on the parent end where we happen to live). Students are looked at in context. Same with the school they attended. If they have no AP classes, for instance, because their school does not offer them, they are not penalized compared to a kid who took no AP classes in a school that offers 26 of them. Same idea. </p>

<p>07Dad,
Fathers definitely have a major influence on a daughter's life and in the ways you cited. I don't think that goes against anything Northstarmom wrote. I do think often there is one parent who is available to do a lot of the educational support. And kids with two parents often benefit. I know my kids did. They had one parent available all the time and two parents available overall who were both involved in their education and their ECs, etc.</p>

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<p>Pity the adcom's. They get trashed for not giving a leg up to the child of a single mom who works two jobs to pay the rent, and then they get trashed for giving a leg up to that kid without fully investigating every detail of how much family love, support, mentoring, etc. that kid got.</p>

<p>It would be very hard to evaluate the boatloads of suburban kids from top performing HS's (and GFG from what you've said, yours is one of them) without making some allowances for the rare applicant from a low performing inner city HS with few resources, an uneducated parent body, crappy neighborhood (frequently unsafe) and kids who have to bypass EC's in order to work as pizza delivery personnel or man the cash register at a laundromat. You can't possibly believe that a kid from such an environment is getting a great deal in life just because an aunt or grandmother took care of him after school, do you????</p>

30

<p>Info about a parent's education, income should <em>ONLY</em> be used by the Financial aid office--not in the context of whether students have had ops for EC's, etc. No, I don't believe that colleges are deciding who to admit based on their parents--but I believe without a doubt that adcoms are seeing this info when they advertise they are "need-blind"- which leads many of us to believe that income and parents ed plays no role in decisions of admissions. These questions just should not be on a college ap any more than questions about where else a student is applying or for that matter their SSN!</p>

31

<p>This may be just a coincidence, but my son was accepted at all the private schools and waitlisted at the only public school where he applied. All have nearly identical admissions statistics. My husband's job title would indicate that financial aid shouldn't be needed so I tend to agree with Notre Dame Al. We made my son get a job and he mentioned the job on college apps, but not all the "trips" he took with his Spanish class to Spanish-speaking countries. BTW, son announced that he really "didn't like working" after a few months on the job so it was definately good for him.</p>

32

<p>
[quote]
From what I've seen personally and in terms of research, mothers tend to be more involved in their kids' upbringing and education than are dads.When dads are involved, they tend to be more involved in things like sports.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am of course an exception to both of these generalizations, but that is partly because we are living in the country of my birth, a foreign country to my wife. If we were living in her country, as we earlier were, I think she would take the lead role in looking up educational programs while I did mostly the breadwinner thing.</p>

33

<p>I heard an interesting perspective on the potential impact of the parental background. A friend who along with her husband is a Harvard alumni is convinced her daughter was deferred EA at Yale because of the double parental legacy at a peer school. She thinks Yale thought the student might very well not matriculate if accepted and thus hurt the yield metric. So her point is that elite legacy status hurts you at schools other than where you're a legacy.</p>

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<p>mammall,
The parents doth protest too much, methinks.</p>

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<p>Mammall...my feeling is that is just conjecture. My kid was a double legacy at one school but got into plenty of other selective schools. I can't imagine an adcom at Yale seeing that a kid is a double legacy at Harvard, not giving him a fair shake, as well as not assuming that the kid would get into Harvard because legacy doesn't mean you WILL get in. The kid deserves to go where he wants. I think when a kid doesn't get into an elite school (such as Yale), folks like to figure out "why" they did not get in. In my view, when a kid doesn't get into a place like Yale (but has the qualifications), I see the reason is that the school can't take all who are qualified and there is no concrete reason you can point to that kept the student out.</p>

36

<p>My son was a double legacy at a peer school of the one where he was accepted EA. If the kid was interested in Harvard, he would have applied to Harvard EA. What the parent is saying doesn't make sense - it sounds like she is trying to find an excuse for her kid's deferral.</p>

37

<p>Agree with entomom and MotherofTwo on that particular case.</p>

38

<p>"This may be just a coincidence, but my son was accepted at all the private schools and waitlisted at the only public school where he applied. All have nearly identical admissions statistics. My husband's job title would indicate that financial aid shouldn't be needed so I tend to agree with Notre Dame Al. "</p>

<p>I doubt if your H's job made a difference with the public school because almost all virtually exclusively make admissions decisions based on the stats and state of residence. One other consideration with public schools that are rolling admission can be date of application: As spaces fill up, those schools raise admission standards.</p>

<p>Was the public school ranked the same or lower as the private schools? If it was higher ranked, that may have been the reason for the waitlist. Another consideration could have been if the public school was out of state or if your S applied rather late in the cycle (which for some public schools can be after Dec. 1.)</p>

39

<p>
[quote]
If the kid was interested in Harvard, he would have applied to Harvard EA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And he may well have in previous years. Harvard no longer has EA, however.</p>

40

<p>Sorry...I wasn't sure if it did or not...</p>