<p>Dad<em>of</em>3, Thank you for your encouragement! It hurts so much.
I have been guessing the terrible mistakes in my kid’s package. The first one might be the interview. However, UC did not even provide interview. The second might be the business/economics major in the application. Actually my kid has not decided what to do at college. It is me who kind of force him to put it there. I wonder if an undecided major would have made a big difference. My eye is wet when I am thinking about this. When I read STUPEFY and others have similar results, I think this is probable. The last one might be the recommendations. I feel ashamed of myself even put this one here. After all, it is my kid who chose the teachers. What kind of teachers will put a kid’s future in jeopardy by saying bad stuff when they could just reject your request for the recommendation. My kid has many ECs even though it is not outstanding based on CC standard. However, there are kids in our HS who almost get their accepts everywhere with similar or even less ECs.</p>
<p>"The second might be the business/economics major in the application. Actually my kid has not decided what to do at college. It is me who kind of force him to put it there. I wonder if an undecided major would have made a big difference. "</p>
<p>“Undecided” wouldn’t have made any difference. The prospective majors that could tip students in are in areas that typically the colleges have a hard time attracting students to. For Ivies, those tend to be things like the arts and humanities. If your kid had put one of those majors down just to try to get in, that probably would have led to a swifter rejection because unless your son had a documented interest in that field, the colleges would have thought he was lying to try to impress the colleges.</p>
<p>"What kind of teachers will put a kid’s future in jeopardy by saying bad stuff when they could just reject your request for the recommendation. "</p>
<p>More than likely, your son’s recommendations were fine. Most students recommendations are fine. </p>
<p>After I got accepted to Harvard, one of the teachers who wrote a recommendation for me told me that she had written that I should not be accepted! I ended up graduating with honors in the major that was the subject she had taught me!</p>
<p>Anyway, you can second guess forever, but you are really wasting your time because you’ll never know the answer. There probably were no terrible mistakes in your son’s application. The Ivy admissions officers say that they could admit from their rejection pool a class equal to the class that they accepted, so there always is a luck factor in getting admitted.</p>
<p>Fortunately, unlike what’s the case in other countries, where one goes to college in the U.S. does not totally determine one’s future vocational and academic prospects. One can be equally successful after graduating from a third tier college as one can be from an Ivy. So much in this country depends on what you do with your degree and how hard and creatively you work.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not necessarily. Ivies also look for kids who are well-rounded in all areas, so it’d be hard to see what exactly the applicant has an interest in.</p>
<p>“After I got accepted to Harvard, one of the teachers who wrote a recommendation for me told me that she had written that I should not be accepted! I ended up graduating with honors in the major that was the subject she had taught me!”</p>
<p>===>
Wow, this is the first time I’ve ever heard of this. And it surprised me too. Then if teachers’ recs are negative, they don’t hurt the applicants much?
Now I am confused</p>
<p>“Not necessarily. Ivies also look for kids who are well-rounded in all areas, so it’d be hard to see what exactly the applicant has an interest in.”</p>
<p>There’s no evidence that her son was well rounded in all areas. I have only inteviewed one student who was genuinely well and deeply rounded. Had strong, obvious interests in a variety of subjects, plus high level achievements in them. National achievements in Latin; state/national achievements in math; local achievements in music and art; national presidency in a well known student organization; community service that was done with passion. Spoke enthusiastically and with passion and detail about all of these things during his interview. Got in Harvard EA.</p>
<p>Most “well rounded” applicants, however, aren’t like that. They’ve dabbled in a lot of things thinking that will impress top colleges. They haven’t achieved at a high level nor do they seem particularly interested in what they’ve done. A student with this kind of background could say they planned to major in the humanities or arts, but it’s not likely that would tip them in since they wouldn’t have demonstrated significant accomplishments or interest in those fields.</p>
<p>“Wow, this is the first time I’ve ever heard of this. And it surprised me too. Then if teachers’ recs are negative, they don’t hurt the applicants much?
Now I am confused”</p>
<p>Top colleges take the recommendations into context, and really do take the time to serously consider all aspects of a student’s application.</p>
<p>In my case, I was the only black student in my class of 500 in my local public school, a highly regarded Upstate NY school that sent several students each year to Ivies. I planned to major in political science, and during my Harvard interview talked enthusiastically about a term paper I had written on black power – then a new concept. I even had travelled 3 hours away to NYC to see Stokely Carmichael speak about that concept that he had helped invent.</p>
<p>My teacher gave me a B- on my paper. I found that paper a few years ago, and it was better than most of my college seniors could have written. </p>
<p>My social studies teacher was a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution - -and was old enough to have been a member when they wouldn’t let Marian Anderson sing at Constitution Hall.</p>
<p>Anyway: Bottom line is that I believe that my teacher gave me a bad recommendation because she was a racist, and Harvard figured that out and discounted her recommendation.</p>
<p>For all I know, the social studies teacher may have specifically said that Harvard shouldn’t accept me because I had written a term paper on the controversial subject of black power. That kind of statement would have made me even more attractive to Harvard. They like students who are willing to research controversial subjects.</p>
<p>^^^Thank goodness times have changed! And thank goodness Harvard figured out why the nasty comment. I’m amazed the teacher actually admitted writing anything negative.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>=>genuinely well and deeply rounded
We don’t have to go to the extreme end of the spectrum. There’s plenty of applicants that are “well-rounded”, even if they are stronger in some areas than others. These kids have a variety of majors open to put on their app. Since we’re talking about Ivy potentials, not all of them have to be interested in the selected major to choose it, as long as they demonstrate interest in it. And if they’re Ivy type students, this should not be too hard of a thing to do.</p>
<p>" Since we’re talking about Ivy potentials, not all of them have to be interested in the selected major to choose it, as long as they demonstrate interest in it. And if they’re Ivy type students, this should not be too hard of a thing to do."</p>
<p>If they’re Ivy type students, they wouldn’t be selecting a major to try to impress the college. Ivy students tend to march to their own drummers. </p>
<p>If they aren’t Ivy-type students, they might select a major to try to impress the college, and the college likely would figure that out because there wouldn’t be evidence on the app or in the interview that reflected a deep interest in the major.</p>
<p>I got a 1600 (lost points on the essay so no 2400) and had a 3.9 and was rejected from seven reach schools and waitlisted at the eighth.</p>
<p>Also not asian.</p>
<p>
Yeah that’s what I was thinking…too bad I’ll never know!</p>
<p>^Stupefy, I agree. I will never waive my younger kids’ right to see the recommendations.</p>
<p>do you NEED to be in the top 1%?
like how many people who are not in the top 2-5% get in?
like what’s the cutoff or average GPA range for HYPSM?</p>
<p>“^Stupefy, I agree. I will never waive my younger kids’ right to see the recommendations.”</p>
<p>Many teachers – who’d write perfectly fine, supprotive recommendations – will not write recommendations for students who insist on seeing them. The teachers can have very good reasons for this including not wanting students to compare recommendations. If a teacher is honest, not every student will get a recommendation as being in the top 1% of the students whom a teacher has taught over the years, yet students may be insulted if they don’t get the highest recommendation in all categories.</p>
<p>Teachers also may not want to have their recommendations edited or critiqued by students and parents. Recommendations that, for instance, describe some aspect of a student that has yet to develop, but may be developed by going to the right college, can be very strong recommendations, more believable to colleges than recommendations that make it sound like the student is perfect. However, students and parents may not realize that, and may want teachers to delete such info even though that info may be exactly what causes a college – including a top one-- to accept a student.</p>
<p>Recommendations are taken with a grain of salt IMHO. Teachers, especially at high schools that send a lot of kids to competitive colleges, are burdened with writing so many recommendations that most just fire off form letters that invariably say something along the line of “This student is among the best I’ve ever had in all my years of teaching.” Not every teacher does this, but it’s becoming the norm. That’s why colleges pay so little attention to the recommendations now.</p>
<p>Also Northstarmom – I have seen evidence of a change in the student body at Harvard. YMMV.</p>
<p>Well I had a chat today with one of the teachers that wrote me a recommendation (after he asked me what my college plans were)
turns out his recommendation WAS good. he let me read it. It spoke glowingly of my writing ability and my growth throughout the year. He was shocked to learn I didnt get in, and I for one was shocked to find out that both of my teacher recs were very strong</p>
<p>Now I’m even more puzzled than before. I guess I just had some bad luck. oh well. I’d rather fail on my own than fail because of someone else</p>
<p>Ivy League schools strongly weight students’ potential contribution to the learning environment. Basically, they get inundated with 4.0s and 2400s, so in order to differentiate applicants they look at personal qualities and academic pursuits beyond the classroom.</p>
<p>For example, Student A, a high school student with a 3.8 GPA, a 2200 SAT, and his or her own clothing business likely has a better shot than Student B, a 4.0, 2400 student who has done little beyond scoring high marks. The Ivies’ see the Student A as someone who has demonstrated through his/her activities that s/he has interests beyond academics and s/he has pursued them in an academic way.</p>
<p>I agree with “benny1” as well, that recommendations don’t hold a great deal of weight. Hopefully, all letters of recommendation describe how outstanding a student is, so there’s not really a lot of differentiation between students in that regard.</p>
<hr>
<p>Dan
[Discus</a> Awards](<a href=“HugeDomains.com”>http://www.discusawards.com/) - Honoring all-around high school students</p>
<p>
Considering each high school class produces roughly 250 perfect scorers, Ivy League and other selective colleges do not get inundated with 4.0, 2400s.</p>
<p>And your example depends entirely on the success of the clothing line. Anyone can be a Student A who tries to make up for his or her shortcomings with an attempted “hook”.</p>
<p>" agree with “benny1” as well, that recommendations don’t hold a great deal of weight. Hopefully, all letters of recommendation describe how outstanding a student is, so there’s not really a lot of differentiation between students in that regard:"</p>
<p>Recommendations can be very helpful when they provide specific examples of a students’ characteristics that would impress colleges . Generic recommendations, however, aren’t helpful.</p>
<p>I guess what I’m asking is
what’s the average profile of a HYP student?
like GPA, rankings, scores, what range do you need to be in?</p>