“I’m gonna have debt anyways, so the amount doesn’t matter.....” Ack!

College is affordable for most young people. I’m not talking about sleep away college, private college Those who have parents with low income, and low EFCs get close to enough with PELL, DIrect Loans, state programs, etc to cover most community college and non flagship state universities.

The kids who get hit hard are the ones whose parents are able to pay by FAFSA standards and they cannot or will not. Those who have parents who cannot or will not gather and give their financial information to their kids for FAFSA submission. This doesn’t necessarily mean the low income families either. I remember one poignant situation where a young student couldn’t get any info, let alone funds from a stepparent and her non custodial parent was unable to contribute much either. She was from a high income household, but had no money for college.

The problem is that the vision of college we most often see is going away to the dorms, to a campus, to a community, away from home. That room and board has to be paid is not part of this picture. Why should the government pay for the upkeep of students? That they do, to the degree that they do, is an issue, in my opinion, except in cases where there truly is no higher education venue available within commuting distance.

I have another soap box about government funding of private colleges, but I’ll save that for another thread.

That is assuming that (a) the parent(s) are willing to continue supporting the student living at home while s/he attends college and fill in any needed financial aid forms, and (b) there are suitable colleges (in terms of academic offerings and within the student’s admissibility range) within commuting range of the parent(s)’ home.

Of the above criteria, (a) depends on the family situation. In terms of (b), those in rural areas are often in “education deserts” where it is unrealistic to commute to a four year school (to finish a bachelor’s degree) and sometimes a community college (where one can start, but typically not finish, a bachelor’s degree). Or the four year schools in commuting range are highly selective and therefore not accessible to most students.

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/education-deserts
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2018/02/02/3-million-americans-live-higher-education-deserts
https://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Documents/Education-Deserts-The-Continued-Significance-of-Place-in-the-Twenty-First-Century.pdf

Without parental support, going to college is very challenging and maybe not even possible for recent high school grads. It’s not just a matter of monetary support, but, yes, support in terms of providing the roof over their heads (though if truly homeless, a student can get independent status)

I’m in what is considered an education “desert” right now–doing some tax season work. The areas around here do have smatterings of community college outreach courses and a shuttle that takes you to the community college which is a good 45 minutes away. A four year state school is also 45 minutes away in the other direction. Many, many of the residents got their degrees taking courses at the local venues and taking either the morning or afternoon bus to the CC and then to the local state school. They were limited, yes, very limited in the first year or so since the courses offered in the communities didn’t offer much choice. There are also on line courses available. It’s not ideal for most students, though the residents here seem to think it’s just fine. Many have done very well going through those steps.

Do I think it’s good enough? No. I’m sure there are education deserts far worse. What percent of students are truly unable to get a college education, I do not know, but it’s still too large. I think a college education should be made available to every student who has completed the back ground and requisite courses to be academically prepared. It should be at no charge. But that doesn’t mean EVERY program, or the ideal way to get through the degree requirements.

A real education desert doesn’t have buses that go to the colleges, IMO. The area I grew up in had none. Zero public transportation there. Roughly 35-45 minute drive in good weather to a community college. And hour and a half or more to a public 4 year college. Lower income people may not have cars reliable enough to drive that far, that often. Especially in inclement weather. They also may not be able to afford the gas to do so.

It is 45 minutes to the community college and an hour to the nearest 4 year college from where I live. There is no public transportation and no shuttles to college, our local library has computers with internet access but is open limited hours. Thankfully my son has received enough scholarships to cover university(he actually had 2 to choose from), but I could see it being highly unlikely for someone in our area who only has the pell grant without additional scholarship money.

Hmm, I suppose online/distance degrees may be an option (though that rules out engineering and labs science classes, so med school and other health careers). And of course there are drawbacks to online degrees (besides prestige). Hard to get prof recs for grad school for instance, or develop a strong network.

But yes, a kid who is free to could move to a city, support themselves working somehow (like in sales) and work on a degree part-time.
But in many cases, kids may be required to help out at home or work to support the family.

Those are the holes in our college system. That percent of student who do not have local choices and do not have the funds to go live at college, or the means to commute to one are the ones that this country has left behind in terms of higher education options.

As far as I’m concerned, we should take federal money (PELL, subsidized DIrect loans, whatever other federal undergraduate tuition subsidies) from private schools and they should be directly applied to those kids left without any options to get a college education. It is a true failing of our country that the situation exists.

In this forum, from what I can see, this is not the problem brought up. The issue for most kids and parents is being able to afford to go to sleep away college, to the “better” college, the college with name recognition, the private college, the out of state college, rather than going to the local state or community college.

Not all community college systems are created equal. There are some where a smart kid (poor, disadvantaged, whatever) can truly shave two years off the cost and time needed for a four year college degree, and where the advising is such that a kid understands exactly what has to happen to transition seamlessly to a four year program.

Not so everywhere. Kids take remedial courses in their CC without ever being told that those credits don’t count. Kids take the statistics course which jives with the bus schedule to get them back and forth, but that statistics class might not count as the pre-requisite for a future STEM major- it’s designed for poli sci or education policy majors down the road.

I hear so many sad stories where the CC two year route is just one more way that public education fails some of our kids. They do their part; they balance a job, family commitments and their classes; they study all night, they get good grades.

But then- ooops- the wrong classes to transfer to the flagship. They need an extra semester or year to make the degree happen. Or their classes transfer, but not in their major. So the choice- switch majors and graduate on time? Stick with what you’re good at, curse the bad advising, and suck it up for the extra semester you cannot afford?

That’s how you end up with pharmacy techs who could have been pharmacists, and phlebotomy assistants who were on track for a high end nursing specialty or PA program but for the wrong pre-requisites and no way to fund an extra year. Or the worst scenario in my book- the kid exhausts the Pells and the loans- and no degree. So back to folding sweaters at Target and picking up extra shifts to try and cover the minimum loan payments.

Folks on CC imagine that the non-flagship branches of every state university are just smaller than the flagship. Yes- they are smaller. But in many parts of the country, that’s because they don’t have an engineering school, or a nursing school, or chemistry classes beyond the sophomore level. What they often have are the cash cow programs- K-12 education which meet their own state requirements for certification, Business degrees, and lots of stuff which can effectively be taught by adjuncts.

So every poor kid just needs to suck it up and become a teacher or major in business??

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Sometimes, the best you can do is just get that college degree. That’s why my son ended up doing after a checkered 14 year journey when he dropped out of his top 25 college, took courses here and there, before seriously going back to school, a local state school, to get a Bachelor of Liberal Studies degree. They call them all kinds of things, Liberal Arts, General Studies, etc, etc. He got his BA, and I am thrilled he did. He can’t get a job that requires specific knowledge, but he’s doing ok, making more than average for a college graduate. I know a lot of people with that degree, and not necessarily even such a degree but still not specific, who are moved from folding sweaters, or as techs, to managers after doing an excellent job and putting in the time. Perhaps, that’s not the most exciting career, but, hey, managing a Dollar Tree or Walmart or at Amazon, gives a heck of a lot better pay than being stuck in the minimum wage mill as you approach middle age.

What sent my son back to college was a brutal awakening when he was a tech manager for a big box type organization, and found out that the chances of getting into management were about nil without a college degree. You need it to become a manager at Enterprise, and a lot of such places (not his place of work, but a program i’m familiar with) Once you are making a living wage, and get a management track record, it is possible to transfer to places that have a masters program in business, and take courses to take you to the next level up, if you so desire. It isn’t easy, but it’s far more doable than being stuck at the bottom of the pay scale with little more than half the COA increases each year or as minimum wage is raised.

I know a lot of kids who slipped up and did a stint in low paying postions that managed to get a toe hold into the next level up with a college degree. Even better if one can find a specialty niche that pays well and a program that gets you that certification. My son’s girlfriend who was a PT assistant, went back to school and got an OT masters, and is now making a decent salary. From minimum wage to $75K in 6 years. It was slow and painful, and she got the degree from a school with little name recognition, but she’s on track for making ends meet. It’s not that easy to complete an engineering or nursing program.

That is an example of credential creep in jobs where the general or major-specific skills and knowledge that a bachelor’s degree is supposed to indicate are not actually required for the job, but the bachelor’s degree is used as a screen-out criterion, even for those already employed at the organization which should therefore be able to observe their work performance.

Generally cost of living is much cheaper in rural areas. Poor kids from those areas can’t afford to move away from any support systems they are part of and into more expensive COLA areas. So moving closer to those educational opportunities may not work for them either.
And there are still areas where internet access is spotty and/or expensive. My parents house happens to be about a mile from where the most reliable, affordable cable and internet access ends. They have satellite tv but the internet through it is very expensive so they have a pretty low cap, using it only for what they really need. If anyone lived there who was trying to take online courses, there is no way they could keep up.

@Blossom - 100%. Among other things, my firm does quite a bit of 401k advising to major companies. Part of the service involves workshops. For this one very well known company, I’ve met individually with over 40 employees in the past 2 months, ranging from just starting to about to retire. A few “get it” but the masses (these are computer science, data analysts, cyber security folks) are so uninformed about basic stuff. Just little things like not having any personally owned life insurance because they 3-5x salary at work. I ask, “what happens if you lose your job, how much do you have then…” Had a conversation with a young guy a few days ago. Making good money, lives in CA. His big issue is debt. Has a lot of it, mostly credit card - like 50k. No savings, no retirement outside of 401k. I ask “What keeps you up at night, biggest concerns?” He answers - he wants to buy a house. I say- with what. He says - I can get a 0% down payment loan (VA I guess). I say - just because you can doesn’t mean you should. How are you going to pay for repairs, general house maintenance, etc? Looks like that 50k debt is about to increase.

Sad but very common!

@blossom Your post #67 really hit home, particularly the last paragraph about regional publics churning out education and business majors. We just had a very real situation about this very thing. Our S19 received a full merit scholarship to a small (enrollment 2,300) regional public. We thought this was excellent until he started the conversation about, “I’m not sure I’m as certain as I thought I was about my intended major.” He goes to a hyper competitive high school and many of the kids have therapists; our son started seeing one this year to help him deal with the stress/pressure. College is/was a major topic because he was applying to schools and received a few nods to compete for full merit scholarships, and the stress of that on top of his normal stuff was almost too much. But I digress.

We knew how hard he was going to have to work to create a path for internships and post-grad employment, despite the fact that he’s a reasonably high stats kid. I would be hard pressed to think many non-alumni outside of our state have even heard of this school (University of Montevallo). They offer about 30 majors, but if a student falls outside of those categories, then I’m not sure what they would do. And it’s a pretty slim course catalog at any rate, but when he was certain about his major we felt like he could make it work. Our concern then became that he would go there and then want to major in something they don’t have (he’s currently thinking Quantitative Economics because he’s taking AP Econ and loves it, and he also enjoys math). And THEN what would he do?

Then the almost unimaginable happened. A school where he competed for a full merit scholarship (but didn’t get it) recently revised his merit scholarship upward, which left a less than $10k/year gap. This is even less than the gap at our state flagship. Bonus: we have a ton of family in Columbus and Indianapolis if he needs to get out of dodge over a weekend, etc. So, we talked it over and told him that if he would like to go there (Miami University) he’s going to have skin in the game in the form of the $3,500 subsidized loan (we turned down the $2k unsubsidized), but that we would pick up the rest. Miami sets tuition/fees/room/board for 4 years so there won’t be any surprises. But now, instead of an essentially free education, he’s going to have $14k in debt when he graduates. Our thinking is that he’s now going to a school that offers him more ways he’ll be able to swing, and they have a good alumni network, career services department, as well as internship pathways. And we won’t be going into debt to finance our part.

We hope we helped our son make the right decision, but we do feel guilty he’ll graduate with debt.

@buckeyeinbama, $14K in debt is very manageable, especially for someone smart who picks up quant skills.

He’s looking in to honors at Miami, I assume?

As mentioned above in this thread, the gap in opportunities between a good public/honors college and lower end of the totem pole is bigger than the gap between the very top and a good public/honors college.
What throws people off is that the difference in the gaps in attention/hype/excitement is the opposite.

And as this thread points out, the amount of debt matters a lot. Much bigger difference between $70K debt and $14K debt than between $14K and zero debt.

I love Miami and I think their alumni posse lol is really strong!

I would definitely think that $14,000 worth of debt is worth it.

@PurpleTitan I couldn’t help but think of your comment, as well, because that seemed to make a lot of sense to me. Yes, son was accepted into UHP (University Honors Program) as well as UASP (University Academic Scholars Program - Law & Public Policy). Not sure what he’ll have to do to keep the extra $2k/yr to remain in UASP, but he said he’s willing to do it because he may end up doing a double major (matching soft with hard). Because of all of the AP scores he’ll be bringing with him, he feels confident he’ll start either as a sophomore or very close to it. Miami also has a program that helps undecided kids get sorted, so that’s a definite plus.

One of the things that caught son’s eye is the companies that come to campus for career fair and internship fair. The public regional doesn’t have anything even close to that happening. So just with that, one can already see the difference in opportunities that will be on offer that a go-getter like him will take full advantage of. Not to mention, they have a really good office that helps kids compete for things like the Gilman, Boren, Truman, etc. It also helps that the Director of the UHP is from the south as well (he even went to U of Alabama… our home state), and he and my son hit it off when son set up meetings with various department heads after being accepted. My son will be the second kid FROM OUR ENTIRE STATE who will be attending Miami. We found out about the other student (current sophomore) from the UASP director, and admissions confirmed it. The kids were able to meet up when he was in town for Make it Miami. Small world.

But I don’t know a thing about quant skills. It just sounds obscure and difficult to me, but he says it could be seriously fun. Sure. For people like him. (lol)

@deb922 Once my son was accepted, he started hearing from all sorts of relatives who were bumping into Miami alum all over the place. (We have a large family, so we have people in D.C., New York, Ohio, Indiana, Oregon, etc.) So that posse you speak of is real. (lol) Those people were doing very well, and expressed a lot of affection for their alma mater. And I know a couple of people from my high school who went to Miami, and they’re doing quite well in their field. Miami grads do seem to stick together, and given how impressed my son is with Miami, and the kind of kids who competed for the Presidential Fellows Program with him, he’s going to be extremely satisfied.

Thank you both for your feedback because the debt thing has been bothering us. Doesn’t seem to be bothering our son, though. (lol)

@buckeyeinbama, he doesn’t know any better. $14K might be the same as $70K to him.

But IMO, $14K is well worth the far better opportunities, resources, and alumni base. He’ll get to increase his subsidized loan amounts in future years and personally, I think anything below $30K in debt would be fine.

And the extra couple thousand would come in handy as spending money. He’ll need that in college.

This all starts sometime between junior year and beginning of senior year. The madness of creating the college app list. So exciting, looking over websites, talking at the school lunch tables…

School lunch tables create sort of a caste system with those in the “high group” being ones who are applying to top programs or at least applying to OOS schools, then there’s the ones in the middle group who are applying to instate schools, but still far enough away to dorm, then there’s the ones who are looked down upon by the other two groups: the ones applying to a local state school or community college.

Few are talking about costs, will their parents pay, etc.

Then spring comes and suddenly a bunch don’t have affordable choices. Hmmmm…the thought of dropping down into the lower group becomes too much to handle.

The hardest ones to reach are the ones who are very impulsive, who “want what they want,” and/or who’ve already invested a lot of time/energy into a bad choice. That’s why for high school students, it’s important to reach them before senior year.

Once they’ve spent the whole year “one upping each other” at the lunch tables, it’s hard to change their minds.

@magnetnh

Frankly, I wish we could “speed up” the whole app process. Open apps in July, submit FAFSA/CSS shortly thereafter, and get results and aid by Nov/Dec. Then there could be a “2nd round” after the New Year for those who wrongly thought that they’d get enough aid. Or got rejected by their fave schools.

Seriously, the UCs have a ONE month (Nov) application window, get a ridiculous number of apps, then take several months to give results. Open the app in July 1, close it on Aug 30th, and give results in Dec. Heck, the UCs should also go with a Match process where students rank their UC choices. Lol

And also, the application should have some mechanism that if you’re going to apply for aid, you must complete the Net Price Calculator first. I’m tired of hearing students/parents saying, “we didn’t get any (or enough) aid. What’s a Net Price Calculator?”

Probably better to have them fill out the net price calculator for the school before filing out the application.

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