<p>Many kids do downgrade their academics in high school in the interest of getting into conservatories. Others don't. My kid took the most rigorous program in high school and still managed to practice, though it limited time for socializing outside of school. As a result, I think he had a wider array of options when applying to colleges. It depends on your kid; I decided not to discourage my own from taking demanding courses and it worked out just fine.</p>
<p>How many hours a day of practice are we talking about here?</p>
<p>My son is very social, sometimes to a fault, but I'd rather see him at a pt job than sitting in front of the Playstation when he's not out socializing. I guess what I'm saying is I want him to still have a life and have fun but still be dedicated to his music. He practices approx. 2 hours/day on his own; then he is in Chicago at CYSO weekly for 3.5 - 4 hrs. The honors is another weekly 3 hrs. Today, he is at an all day cello workshop in Chicago. And this is just orchestra, not counting band (even tho he will have to limit if not quit that by next year but he's trying out for drum major). He seems to get his homework done during class and only has about 45. min. max most days. So, that's why we encouraged the job. He's putting 1/2 of his pay in his college tuition account.</p>
<p>We may very well discover that he dosen't quite have what it takes for a conservatory or is just not disciplined enough. I do wonder...</p>
<p>It is hard to imagine that is all the homework he has! Three-four hours a night of homework in a demanding high school curriculum is much more common. Add to that 3-5 hours of cello practice a day, and there is not time for much else. It will take that kind of practice to prepare audition materials required for a breadth of schools...requirements overlap somewhat, i.e. all require a couple of movements of Bach and a concerto movement, and some require much more (sonata, 2 Popper level etudes-memorized, assigned contemporary piece, etc.)</p>
<p>I agree that his level of homework sounds strange. And really, only occasionally there might be an hour here or there. But his teachers all say he does very well and at the top of all his classes. But like I said, he gets a lot of it done at the end of each class. And as I said earlier, he is not in any AP or honors classes. This is also a public school. Just your average curriculum. He probably could/should be in AP courses but there's not much I can do about it. It is what it is. Two teachers have said they have rec. him for AP courses next year so things might change. I know he'd flip out if he had 3-4 hours of homework and 3-5 hours of cello a day. And in all honesty, most everyone else we know feel we push him too much! We don't at all, but to an outsider, it appears that way. </p>
<p>He is finishing a Saint Saens concerto now and starting a Popper next month.</p>
<p>How does your child get the homework and instrument practice done each day? You listed a minimum of both being 6 hours daily with a maximum of 9 hours.</p>
<p>The diligence for the student and the parents is all very hard.</p>
<p>Concerning the merit aid at Oberlin, you have to differentiate between the College and the Conservatory. The Conservatory seems to offer a good bit more merit money per student than the College. While merit awards at the College tend to be small, the couple of years back the Conservatory gave merit aid to about a third of those accepted with most getting between $8000 and $12000. A few got more. I think it has been that way for many years.</p>
<p>Both schools provide 100% of demonstrated need and are usually very good about doing that with the usual Stafford loans, a reasonable amount of work-study and the lion's share in grants. They can afford to do that because they do not have need-blind admissions and will take some full-pay students who might not have gotten in had they required financial aid.</p>
<p>For those who are interested in the dual degree, do not sweat the College admission process. If you are accepted by both College and Con, so much the better. If you are accepted to the Conservatory only, it is fairly easy to transfer into the double degree program in the second year. With careful class selection, it can still be completed in five years. It is NOT easy to go the other way and transfer from the College side into the double degree program. You must still audition with everyone else.</p>
<p>My cellist son attended a public school. He practiced about 2 hours a day. He had about 60-90 minutes of homework a day. He was at the top of his class. Our school doesn't offer much in the way of AP. I think the only AP class he had was French. He did take the AP English Lit test and the AP English Writing (?) test and got a 4 on one and 5 on the other, but that wasn't until his senior year and was not part of the admissions picture. He did not take any math beyond pre-calculus. He also only went to school half time during first semester senior year to give him more time to prepare for auditions. </p>
<p>He was fine for all of the schools he was interested in that required academics. When he knew he wanted to apply to Rice, we even called the music school to ask about his decision to discontinue math and they said that it would not be a problem for music school admission.</p>
<p>As far as Oberlin goes, son #3 attends there. He is NOT in conservatory, only in the college. He has a $15,000 a year scholarship and gets $2000 NM from the school as well. In addition he got a grant last year which, when combined with scholarships, came close to meeting our EFC.</p>
<p>I stand corrected about what is possible in terms of work load and Oberlin's financial generosity....mea culpa. I am shocked about the homework loads you are reporting, because that is not the way it was for my son in high school nor any of his friends. In fact he had 2+ hours a night while he was in middle school! He was in a school system with three levels of courses, regular, honors, and AP, and he had to drop to the honors level courses + one AP a year in order to have time for string study and outside orchestra. It sounds like your son has a excellent grasp of his time and energy...good luck! Lorelei</p>
<p>I didn't mention that his HS has a block schedule and each class is 90 minutes. So that does give him time to do some homework at the end of each class. Plus, he has always been "lucky" and flies by the seat of his pants and always turns things in at the very last possible second. Some teachers have said that if he just took a little extra time, he could be amazing. But he only does what is necessary. It's not a good trait but I've never been able to change that in him. He has never really had to work hard at his subjects. I do believe there will be a day when the "other shoe will drop" as they say. I can see it coming. I've always believed that the true reward comes to those who work the hardest.</p>
<p>So we'll see if he gets into a conservatory. This has all been very interesting and helpful.</p>
<p>Academically, your son sounds a bit like mine. Never put off today what you can put off until tomorrow.</p>
<p>Besides the fit of student & studio teacher, a number of other points to consider: </p>
<p>-the large versus small school environment preference
-urban versus suburban or rural environment
-size of the overall instrument studio
-number and types of instrumental performance organizations
-orchestral, chamber, or soloist path of concentration</p>
<p>For reference, Strings magazine publishes an annual list of music schools sometime during the summer, as does Strad. If nothing else, these are fairly exhaustive in the number of schools listed and gives you web addresses as well as some faculty listings. I have also found them to have fairly conspicuous schools missing, but it's a good place to begin to see all options that might be available. (They do the same thing for summer festival/camp opportunities as well.) I highly recommend a subscription to one if not both magazines for a developing string player. </p>
<p>Concentrate on developing skills through practicing, but don't let the academics slide. An AP or two is fine and encouraged particularly if the interest in the subject matter is there. Other interests make for a more well-rounded individual.</p>
<p>For admittance, the audition is basically everything. Look at the acceptance/rejection list thread... it shows quite well what can happen on any given day. </p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Back to the academic issue....kids do change their minds about this music thing, and sometimes their minds are changed for them when they do not make the kind of progress they must to be successful professional musicians. If a student has not learned how to study for demanding courses at the high school level, taking college level academic subjects would be harder. The ability to move into a different field of study is more difficult, and options will be limited. </p>
<p>Setting the bar too low academically for our children is not the best way to be supportive, from what we have learned as parents. Being sure there are real options and choices because of the earlier decisions is a critical responsibility.</p>
<p>Here are two sources that along with BassDad's post should be mandatory reading:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/705%5B/url%5D">http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/705</a></p>
<p>and</p>
<p>The Peabody link I gave you was in error. While it is worth reading as it gives a pretty comprehensive view of applying to music schools in general, the link I wanted to provide was <a href="http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/692%5B/url%5D">http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/692</a>. This is not so much for the double degree aspect, but it does give a pretty good benchmark to judge from among the three "profiles" as to where your son's musical interests might lie.</p>
<p>violadad, thanks for your helpful info.</p>
<p>lorelei, I hear what you're saying. But, we don't have a lot of other choices or options. If he does change his mind, well he'll just have to work harder than he ever has in his life and that might be a good thing!!</p>
<p>rudysmom, Your S sounds very talented. Chicago Youth Symphony is an impressive group and signifies a high level of ability.</p>
<p>I'm curious what kind of part time job your S has. (I read the thread, but if you already said, I missed it). The thing we noticed that conservatories look for is that all-encompassing focus on music. They don't want kids - no matter how talented - who can't stand "all music, all the time." Those kids drop out, transfer, bad-mouth the school as "arrogant and uppity", etc. They look for evidence of this single-mindedness through-out the application. If you kid is working in a music store, for example, that is better than bussing tables.</p>
<p>Spending hours on homework, or earning money for college, are valid reasons to not be completely submersed in music - and conservatories recognize this. Many conservatories (eg. Juilliard) also value community service.</p>
<p>What they don't value is the need to spread yourself all over because you aren't focused enough, or easily bored. So two identical experiences can be presented entirely differently on paper, with different results.</p>
<p>My S (by way of example) was extremely focused on music throughout HS, and this showed up in his application. He took a number of APs but that was so he could get core courses out of the way if he ended up at a school that requried them. His APs included a 5 in music theory, junior year (so it showed up on his applications - he planned it that way, postponing social studies because he knew music schools didn't care about that). His "job" was gigs. His HS science experiment was evaluating the frequency of different horn tone quality. Most of his honors and awards had to do with music. His summer camps were music. And so on. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that he was willing to do all music, all the time.</p>
<p>He has had a few friends at Juilliard who are unhappy with the school. They chose it for the "name" but don't like the intensity. This is a time that would be really useful to "Know thyself."</p>
<p>I would agree with Binx that "Know thyself" will be an increasingly important mantra for your son, and that a part time job will be quite difficult to maintain the kind of intensity on an instrument through junior and senior years in high school if your S is really thinking about conservatories. I would highly recommend some summer music program experience; music camp clinched it for both DS and DD.: S experienced the kind of intensity and focus on music that he knew he did NOT want, although he continues to play his violin in his college orchestra. D. realized that she wanted nothing else, and redoubled her efforts (and practice time) in preparation for auditions.</p>
<p>I, too, would highly recommend an intense summer program of some kind. My son attended Interlochen after his freshman year. It was very expensive and we didn't know if we should spend the money, but decided it was worth it for him to find out early if he could really do music 24/7. We went to visit him after he had been there about 3 weeks. He was waiting for us in the parking lot (not a good sign). When he greeted us he said, "Mom, I have found heaven!" There were things about the camp experience that he didn't like, but he loved being able to just do music and be around others who felt the same way. </p>
<p>In conservatory, he did find that he needed a break from music. He found a need to stimulate another part of his brain, so he always took at least one class that had nothing to do with music. (The one semester he didn't he just about went crazy.) But music was alway first. It is not a bad thing for your son to have other interests, but they need to be pretty focused on music.</p>
<p>First of all, I want to thank dveryone who has posted such wonderful & insightful information.</p>
<p>Now, on to some additional questions and comments - - </p>
<p>His p.t. job is at one of the local "big box" stores. It is most definately for his college tuition or the purchase of a cello. His first interviews were to the 2 music stores/schools we have nearby and they were all very impressed with his resume and his maturity but once they found out he was only 16 they said come back when you're 18. (uh, he'll be in college then...) And everywhere else, 18 minimum age limit unless it was bussing tables or at a few of these Target-type stores. The malls raised the age to 18 as well. VERY disappointing. (No wonder so many teens get into trouble if they have nothing to do!)</p>
<p>He is asked by his HS orchestra instructor to play in ensembles at weddings, pit groups, lots of solos at church, and Cancer Society & Am. Red Cross fundraisers, etc., all unpaid. So I'm HOPING these account for some service hours.</p>
<p>He has always wanted to attend Interlochen or Birch Creek. My husband thinks it's an "indulgence" but that's another situation in of itself. (The money, etc.) If someone is not raised in a musical family then they don't quite understand. But I know a summer music camp would help in the decision of whether he can cut it or not. It just might be too much music for him after all! </p>
<p>And then to add to this complicated equasion, he was told last week by the marching band director that he's most likley going to be selected drum major for this next season. This is a dream come true for him. We've been told that it helps form great leadership skills. But once again, that puts a strain on hours needed for his cello.</p>
<p>As I read over and over on this thread the intensity that everyone's child has had (or wanted) to put forth in their practicing, I am very, very afraid that mine just dosen't have that discipline.</p>
<p>So we'll see. Thanks again.</p>
<p>rudysmom- </p>
<p>Regards the job, if it gets in the way, rethink it. Also, repeated wedding type gigs, church services should be paying gigs, not freebies. The pit orchestras (if school or school system related) along with the charity work should be gratis. But think about it: if he's good enough to be asked repeatedly to perform, then he's good enough to be paid. Don't let him be taken advantage of. People normally pay for music at weddings, and churchs (I'd exclude your own congregation) have a music budget, albeit often limited.</p>
<p>Even school musicals, particularly at the high school level, will engage "ringers" for compensation if the instrumentation is lacking or ability of the school orchestra is inadequate. </p>
<p>The high intensity summer experience is invaluable. And you don't necessarily have to pay for it, or pay through the nose. If you're interested, PM me. Unfortunately, it's probably a bit too late for most opportunities this summer, but a few do exist.</p>
<p>I echo vialadad's opinion on gigs.<br>
Our son played everything and anything for free for the schools in his school district while still a HS student. BUT he was often asked to play in the pit orchestra of other schools and was paid as the other 'ringers' were.</p>
<p>He also played in a wonderful brass quintet (with prof. musicians) for Easter service for three years in our hometown. He was paid, though I think a bit less than the 'real' musicians.</p>
<p>Now, in college, he only plays paid gigs......it's preparation for real life as a musician! Church gigs, summer park gigs, weddings, etc. He uses this money for his pocket all school year since we provide no allowance and he has very limited time to work a conventional job during the college year.</p>
<p>also weighing on gigs and agree with violadad and music mom. My D has several recurring church gigs and her youth orchestra also keeps an informal gig board that funnels all sorts of opportunities, including pit orchestra opportunities for the many high school musicals in our region.</p>
<p>Don't forget to see if your son's youth orchestra might be a resource to help with summer programs. Thanks to several generous "donor angels" my D's YO offers scholarships for summer programs and instrument purchases.</p>