<p>I was in love with Carleton College before, based on visiting the campus but not officially. And knowing people who graduated 20 years ago. And the person who took me around to show me the campus had graduated over 20 years ago. But now, I have gone for the official tour and interview, and did not like it. I kept having to repeat to myself that it was ranked so high, I need to apply there. But honestly, two of the students doing the tour (there were 3) were not very nice. I really did not like the attitude or feel of the campus. The older people working there all seemed very nice. Since I have family who went to Carleton and not St Olaf, I had been told that I would hate St Olaf and not to even look at it. But when I toured and interviewed at St Olaf, I loved it!!!! Everyone was great! The campus was gorgeous! I can completely see myself there.</p>
<p>Then the ranking issue comes out. I think I have a good chance at getting in to Carleton. So, there is a little bit of an obligation feeling that I should be applying there and have it at the top of my list because it is ranked so high. But I just did not care for it. </p>
<p>Any advice for me? Maybe it was just an off day for those students? Or go with my feelings?</p>
<p>Not liking a highly ranked campus and preferring a lower ranked one isn’t unusual. I wasn’t a big fan of either campus at my top 20 school but I love my new school, a mid tier flagship. Fit is a big thing and if you can’t picture yourself at a particular school, great. That means you have three or fewer essays to write.</p>
<p>I live in the area, spend time on both campuses, and know quite a few students at both. Here are a couple of things for you to consider:</p>
<ul>
<li>On average the students are a brighter at Carleton. There is a difference in the students I have known at both schools. Can think of one VERY bright student who went to St. O. The rest could not have gotten admitted at Carleton. Just something to consider. Did you sit in on classes at both colleges? It would be a good idea, since that is really why you are attending college. And would help you think about whether this is an important aspect for you.</li>
<li>St. Olaf is more conservative. Not hyper conservative, but enough to notice. Again, this is personal preference on your part.</li>
</ul>
<p>intparent…with all do respect perhaps the students are more down to earth at st olaf and less arrogant then many at carleton. a lot of super smart people attend both schools. st olaf very well may be a better fit for the OP.</p>
<p>The students at Carleton were arrogant. And I felt like if I said the wrong thing, they would roast me. The students at St Olaf seemed down to earth and more accepting.</p>
<p>Plenty of extremely smart kids go to St. Olaf. One of my son’s best friends is there and he was a high-stats, motivated student in high school. His cousin is starting there in the fall and she loved it enough to apply ED even though she was a super high achiever (academics and music, interested in STEM) from an underrepresented area and likely would have had many other options.</p>
<p>By contrast, the only kids from our high school that I know at Carleton are athletes. They’re not dumb, but they’re not kids anyone would describe as academic superstars–and most people believe they are there because of their athletic talents.</p>
<p>There is nothing a Carleton degree can do that a St. Olaf degree cannot. Both schools prepare kids well for med school, law school, and PhD programs. Both offer study-abroad and research and internships opportunities.</p>
<p>In my opinion, “fit” trumps almost all other variables in college selection.</p>
<p>We hosted 4 band students touring with the St Olaf band a couple years ago. They were friendly, nice and pleasant. The rooms were left clean. They wrote us thank you notes and were appreciative of us hosting them.</p>
<p>I don’t know too much about either college but it was a good experience having those 4 St Olaf students with us.</p>
<p>Did you visit just now? Because summer visits present a very unrealistic view of schools, especially tiny liberal art colleges like Carleton. When I saw Swarthmore in the summer, it was a ghost town, which was a turn-off. But visiting again during the school year changed my mind.</p>
<p>Our kids’ high school is a “feeder” to these two schools. So I do know the difference in the types of students that go there. I stand by my original post – while St. Olaf gets the occasional superstar student, by far most of the student I know there were mediocre students in high school. Good, solid B/B+ students – but not deep thinkers. Nice kids, but pretty superficial in a lot of ways. I personally would pick the Carls in a heartbeat for intellectual depth. And most of the Carls I know are pleasant people to be around, too. But the OP can obviously apply where he wants to. One option is to apply to both and visit for accepted student days. You get a more in depth look when you do that. I know my D changed her mind between her top schools because of accepted student visits, so keep an open mind until you have done more than a summertime tour.</p>
<p>I didn’t attend either school, so don’t really have a personal dog in this fight. Both of my kids did apply to Carleton. One got in and one didn’t, the one that got in did not choose to attend. Fine with me in both cases.</p>
<p>Here is some background on the OP. His/her stats would be near the bottom 25th percentile at Carleton and right at the 75th percentile for St. Olaf. Without better scores admission to Carleton will be difficult if he or she doesn’t have a hook like a sport, URM, etc. But at St. Olaf, he/she might get some nice merit aid. That is one advantage of being at the top of the stats pool. And before anyone says “well, students at the top aren’t challenged enough,” I will pre-empt them by saying that is just not true in our experience. My son is at a college where he was at the top of the stats range and has been both impressed by his peers and also given a ton of attention by professors who expect a lot from him. He was never pushed in high school the way he was his freshman year of college. It has been wonderful.</p>
<p>That may be true for the graduates of your kids’ HS. I don’t think it’s true generally. It is true that on average, Carleton students have more impressive stats than St. Olaf students, but St. Olaf still gets some very capable students. Comparing the two schools’ Common Data Sets for 2012-13, Carleton’s entering freshmen in 2012 had middle 50% ACT scores of 29-33, while St. Olaf’s middle 50% ACT score were 25-31. SAT scores were similar. What that means is that the top quartile at St. Olaf would have been somewhere in the top half of the class (probably most of them in the second quartile) at Carleton. And the bottom quartile at Carleton would have been in the bottom half of the class (probably mostly third quartile) at St. Olaf. Finally, St. Olaf’s second quartile would have been in Carleton’s third quartile, and St. Olaf’s third quartile would have been in Carleton’s fourth quartile. Not to say that they all would have been admitted if they applied (in either direction), but if admitted, that’s where Carleton’s students would stack up vis-a-vis St. Olaf’s stats and vice versa.</p>
<p>That’s substantial overlap, to the point that you can only fairly say that perhaps 1/4 of the St. Olaf students “could not have been admitted” to Carleton because their ACT scores were too low.</p>
<p>I know ACT scores aren’t everything, but there’s also substantial overlap on other stats. Carleton reports 80% of its entering freshmen were in the top 10% of their HS class; at St. Olaf that figure is 50%. Again, substantial overlap. Carleton doesn’t report average HS GPA, but St. Olaf reports the average HS GPA for its freshman class was 3.62. That’s an A- average, not B/B+. St. Olaf also reports 50.8% of its freshmen had a HS GPA of 3.75% or higher, certainly high enough not to be disqualifying at Carleton.</p>
<p>There may be certain high schools where students sort themselves between the two colleges the way intparent describes, but that’s not the norm. A key fact about St. Olaf is that it’s a Lutheran school, and more particularly a Norwegian Lutheran school. Not everyone there is a Norwegian Lutheran by any means (and by the way, Norwegian Lutherans are ELCA, which is a pretty liberal Protestant denomination that recently voted to begin celebrating same-sex marriages). But I know lots of Norwegian Lutheran families from Minnesota and elsewhere around the Upper Midwest who have proudly sent their kids to St. Olaf, regardless of how high their stats. Many of those kids are multi-generational legacies there. St. Olaf has a very strong brand in the Upper Midwest, and for most of the kids who go there, it’s not just because they couldn’t get into Carleton. For a great many, it’s their first choice. Everyone I know who has gone there has loved the school, loved the experience, and speaks of it with great pride. And they are pretty down-to-earth, too.</p>
<p>I do think for a long time many (not all) Carleton students have had an attitude about St. Olaf, a sense of superiority. I’ve known quite a few Carleton students and alums, and in other contexts they’re pretty nice people, and on average very bright (but definitely spanning a range). But a lot of them do look down their noses at St. Olaf. And the Oles know it, and resent it, and think the Carls are arrogant and stuck-up and pretentious (though this is probably exaggerated somewhat in the minds of the Oles). It makes for an at times quite bitter rivalry between the schools, in which St. Olaf usually kicks the stuffing out of Carleton in football, which to many Oles is just deserts for Carleton’s uppity airs, and to some Carls is just further confirmation that Oles are just a bunch of oafish brutes. </p>
<p>More like solidly third quartile at Carleton, based on the 2012-13 Common Data Set. Only 61% of Carleton’s entering freshmen in 2012 scored 700 or higher in SAT CR; also 61% 700+ in SAT M, and 54% 700+. Since the OP’s 2090 translates to an average of just under 700 per section, I’d say s/he’s mid- or even high-third quartile for Carleton in SAT scores. But I agree that without a hook, that makes Carleton something of a longshot, and the OP’s chances are much better at St. Olaf.</p>
<p>undecided2014, you could apply to both so you can think about it longer and consider the options when you see where you get in. But if you really don’t like Carleton it isn’t necessary.</p>
<p>It is too bad the tour guides didn’t do a better job at being welcoming, that’s for sure and I’m sure Carleton would be very upset to hear that they seemed arrogant. Are you the type to be intimidated? That could influence how you see things. However it is unlikely that you can stereotype these schools correctly by meeting the few students that you did. Nothing wrong if you choose St. Olaf in the end.</p>
<p>I think ClassicRockerDad nailed it. There’s little point to applying to a school if you don’t like it. My daughters visited numerous schools and rejected many of them, for good reasons or not-so-good reasons. No problem, as far as I was concerned. There are dozens of good schools out there where they could get a fine education. Winnowing the list was more of a challenge than filling a list. St. Olaf should be on your list, and based on your reactions Carleton shouldn’t. Now find some other schools you like as well or nearly as well as St. Olaf. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.</p>
<p>Sadly, I think the more time high school kids spend on this site, the more obsessed they become with generally meaningless intangibles like rankings and prestige. This is apparent from the OP’s post–“Then the ranking issue comes out.” It’s hard to tell impressionable young people that specious evaluations of a for-profit, input-driven publication don’t matter. But gut feelings do.</p>
<p>*St Olaf is on my list. I just got back from there. I have family there and love everything from the church (ELCA) to the nice people, and so on. </p>
<p>At Carleton, I love the personal relationships with the profs. It seems people tend to get along well. Even their youtube videos are so great that I have watched most of them. The campus is gorgeous. The course listings are exactly what I want. I love the trimester system as I prefer a little less in classes, but more intense. So 3 terms a year rather than 2 semesters is great. The people there seem thought provoking. I can picture myself staying up until 3am discussing an anthropology class. I cannot stand the idea of being at a school where if I do not go to some huge large party and get drunk, I will be outside of the social scene. I love that a lot of classes seem more conversational and less lecture at the student type. </p>
<p>On my political views, I am conservative politically. I would like to see government spending cut back drastically. I do not like Obamacare. I think it is really hitting rural midwest hard, as I am hearing a lot about people losing jobs and other things where my relatives live, over Obamacare. MN is conservative in the more rural areas (which is where I usually go when I am there) and liberal in the Twin Cities. Religiously, I am conservative in that I am definitely prolife in every way. But, I think women should be pastors. Sometimes, I think I would maybe like to be a pastor. I hold my relationship with God to be very important and that I do the right thing and make good decisions. I do not have a problem with things like premarital sex (but I chose to not have it). But I will be honest, I do have a problem with drinking. Some of my Dad’s family are heavy substance abusers and I have a hard time being around drunk people. If I thought I could get through college without ever having to deal with a drunk, I would go for it. But I have been told that is a reality I will likely have to face.*</p>
<p>undecided 2014, this post you placed ~ 2 weeks ago on another thread speaks to views and interests that, I’d agree, are probably more a fit with St. Olaf than Carleton. Math and music parallel two of Olaf’s greatest strengths. Church is obviously deeply embedded in the fabric of the school. And although Carleton and Olaf are not as different as many outsiders might believe on the liberal/conservative spectrum, Olaf is still the more conservative of the two. It frankly sounds like a great choice for you.</p>
<p>Having said that, I’d also agree with advice you’ve been given to apply to both. I’m surprised there hasn’t been more comment on the OPs tour of Carleton in summer, out of school session, on an empty campus, and his concerns about “two of the students doing the tour (there were 3)” being found wanting. This at a school whose greatest draw is a student body recognized for its friendliness, humility, and humor. I’d suggest that a re-visit to Northfield after April acceptances would add a significantly deeper perspective to impressions drawn to date. Certainly the student body sampling size will favor a more accurate statistical analysis. </p>
<p>In general, be careful not to succumb too readily to the “tyranny of the tour,” and most dreaded of all, the summer tour. Wait until the spring and then overnight, or even better, weekend on campus before passing final judgments. Good luck!</p>