I wish I weren't Asian

College Confidential Community
341

<p>Drosselmeier,</p>

<p>A Dream Deferred was written in 1998, and some (not all) things have changed in the last nine years. For example, Dr. Steele mentions how the ebonics movement was once within inches of mainstream approval. Yet, I was castigated by AdOfficer for asking whether or not cultural relevance referred to ebonics. Hmm, I wonder why.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, money itself is not enough. It depends on how it is used. Funding programs that attempt to pass off grammatically incorrect English as a viable language for classroom instruction is a waste of money. Funding programs that encourage “average” students to rise up to the challenge of AP and IB coursework and provide necessary support is NOT a waste of money. Those kinds of programs, like AVID, have the potential to create stronger applicants from the “under-represented” groups. They tell the students loudly and clearly that not only are they capable of such high demands, but they must reach them if they are to strengthen themselves academically.</p>

<p>If I have understood you correctly, then your second paragraph indicates a support for affirmative action as defined by aggressive nondiscrimination.</p>

<p>Sir, if this is the case, then we have no argument, because I firmly believe in affirmative action as defined by aggressive nondiscrimination.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, I am not so sure if that is indeed the case because you still support the use of race to make sure Johnny doesn’t get “left behind.”</p>

<p>Black enrollment at Berkeley and Los Angeles dropped after 1996, but it didn’t go to zero. If Johnny were a Californian, I contend that the merits produced by his spirit, motivation, and work ethic would land him a spot at either of those institutions.</p>

<p>I am convinced that the student we have described can absolutely make it to an elite college solely by his developed strengths.</p>

<p>I fully support programs that can make more students strive for excellence. It'll be tough, but the rewards will be that much better.</p>

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<p>I'd like to say that I really appreciate fabrizio's statement "Some of us hope that, in the interest of social justice, we all can put aside our immediate self-interest in favor of a stronger society as a whole"...I think this is really an important point, although its never going to happen - we don't live in a socialist society where the common good is valued over an individual's good. Unfortunately, education - particularly higher education - has never been seen as a societal good in this country; on the contrary, it has always been seen as an investment in one's human capital. </p>

<p>However, fabrizio, I have to agree with momwaitingfornew that I really don't think you're reading all that carefully. You were not castigated for making a reference to ebonics; rather, the tone of that comment is what you were criticized for. Also, I did clarify my use of "racial preference" - it was a direct response to a comment YOU made and as such I used your terminology. I you'd like me the rescind the comment let me know; however, as I quite clearly and explicitly explained, racial preferences are quite different from affirmative action - go back and read my post on this particular point. </p>

<p>In addition, your reference to Bowen and Bok is carefully taken out of context once again to support your point of view. Taking things out of context in this way is dangerous (particularly in college writing) and academically disingenuous. If in college or grad school you tried to use this particular point from Bowen and Bok - that if AA did not exist the enrollment of black students would plummet in elite colleges - to make an argument against affirmative action, you would fail, miserably, because you cannot sum up the whole body of a researcher's work in one statement - particularly when the researchers spend a large portion of their work addressing WHY (in this case) these enrollments would plummet. To explain why these enrollments would plummet, one would have to address, AGAIN, the historic prejudice and current discrimination URM students face in our nation's schools, the culturally-biased nature of standardized tests used in college admissions, the intimidation these students face from their non-black peers, the information gap that exists in minority communities with respect to knowledge about college admissions and financial aid because of their historic exclusion from higher education, etc...you are really taking academic work that I don't think you fully understand or have fully read/studied to make arguments that it cannot support. </p>

<p>With respect to the idea "if AA isn't used that much, why have it at all," I think there does need to be some clarification. But drosselmeier hinted at it a bit...the fact of the matter is, until very recently, very few schools actively recruited non-white students; those that did did so rather sporadically. Today, if you look at the racial composition of many highly-selective schools' applicant pools, you will see that black and Latino students, in particular, are GROSSLY under-represented. At one extremely selective institution in the northeast I used in my research, black students were only 2% of the applicant pool; at many others, they are usually less than 7% of the applicant pools and often make up less than 7% of the incoming classes. White students are quite often more than 70% of the applicants at these schools and often make up more than 70% of the incoming classes. Why? Because there are so many more white students in this country; in addition, going to a predominantly white institution can be intimidating to a student of color. But actual effect affirmative action has on anyone - particularly white students - in these applicant pools is relatively negligible - as Bowen and Bok assert (with the support of statistical evidence) repeatedly because of the large number of white students applying to these schools. In this sense, affirmative action isn't used that much. In addition, and I've said this before, just because someone identifies with a certain race does not mean that we will necessarily give it much weight. Remember that race is not the only thing we consider when trying to understand a student's perspective. Geography, gender, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, etc..., are also considered in an attempt to create a diverse class. </p>

<p>Interestingly, fabrizio, one other thing you fail to mention when talking about Bowen and Bok is that black graduates of elite institutions actually graduate at the same or even higher rates from graduate and professional schools than do their white counterparts; they also tend to give more back to their communities following graduation than their white counterparts with respect to community service hours. Considering this, I would contend that higher education's use of affirmative action is clearly contributing to improving the social good...</p>

<p>If someone does not think having a diverse class is important, well, that might be one reason why they do not support affirmative action. But most of us in higher education think it is important pedagologically and thus seek students with different perspectives and talents. However, we will always make sure to respect the academic integrity of our institutions and would thus never admit a student we thought was not "qualified" academically. Considering the social and historical contexts of a student's academic acheivements and potential is certainly part of that qualification. No pun intended, but this debate is not as black and white as many make it out to be, and neither is college admissions.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
A Dream Deferred was written in 1998, and some (not all) things have changed in the last nine years. For example, Dr. Steele mentions how the ebonics movement was once within inches of mainstream approval. Yet, I was castigated by AdOfficer for asking whether or not cultural relevance referred to ebonics. Hmm, I wonder why.

[/quote]
I am not sure, but perhaps it was because you are promulgating some popular misconceptions about the Ebonics Movement. Btw, I am not at all sure I support this movement. But I know it tries to address an issue (simply, and creatively I might add) that is near and dear to my heart. I don't think it has had a fair hearing because too many people attacked it before understanding it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Nevertheless, money itself is not enough. It depends on how it is used. Funding programs that attempt to pass off grammatically incorrect English as a viable language for classroom instruction is a waste of money.

[/quote]
I want to encourage you to try to overcome this bias and actually see what the movement tried to accomplish. I think you will find it has been unfairly maligned.</p>

<p>This is a very huge and complex matter. It was not an assault on English. It was an attempt to reach black kids where they live every day. You know, black English has so much culture jammed into it. But it is culture based in slavery. This means it is a killer in academic and commericial contexts. After all, the language was actually created to kill black progress in these areas. But without it, the whole world as we know it would be vastly different than it is today. Without it, you would not have Ellison's "Invisible Man", you'd have basically nothing written by Toni Morrison. Broadway would not exist. Neither would Hollywood. You wouldn't have Negro Spirituals, no country music, no Blues, no Jazz, no Funk, and therefore no R&B, no Rock, no hip hop (which I think would be a good thing) and no World Music - at least none of these things as we know them today. Even the conversation we are having today would be radically different. The very English you speak today has been deeply influenced by black English. Language is very complex. It is not just words. It is tonality, timbre, rhythm, and so much more. These are all being influenced by other factors, while themselves influencing those factors. Employed in the wrong context, it can kill. That is in part what is happening to black kids. What some scholars are trying to do is learn how it is that black kids handle black English and then bridge it so that it can be put away for use in cultural contexts. The students will then be freer to pick up standard English and use it in the classroom and elsewhere. Some blacks already do this, and most of these are found in the middle classes. Actually whites do it too. Take a lot of average white kids, put them around their peers and they'll be saying mess like [beachboy accent]"Yo dude! We're gonna chill at Jeremy's tonight. Wanna catch a movie or something, man?"[/beachboy accent] All of that is straight from blacks, but we now think it is a white thing. Take those same whites and put them in another context, and their language will often change radically. What the Ebomics Movement aimed to do is help blacks make the same sort of switch, removing all the racial discomfort associated with this language change (yes. race even affects language. It affects everything).</p>

<p>I tend to think black english should be discarded because of its originally destructive purpose. But then I remember the power of Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, John Coltrane, Ellison, Clifford Brown, Charlie Parker, Ellington, etc., and I realize ain' no way I can let dat mess go, man. It is as much a part of me as me is, despite the fact that I generally don't use it. Yeah, I know the lingo because I grew up with it, and I have read a lot of stuff influenced by it. But in my day-to-day life, I sound as "white" as the driven snow, and have no problem with it. Check this out, if you wanna know more about the EM <a href="http://www.stanford.edu/%7Erickford/papers/VernacularToTeachStandard.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanford.edu/~rickford/papers/VernacularToTeachStandard.html&lt;/a>. I still have misgivings about some of these approaches. But I think this movement still deserves a fair hearing.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Funding programs that encourage “average” students to rise up to the challenge of AP and IB coursework and provide necessary support is NOT a waste of money. Those kinds of programs, like AVID, have the potential to create stronger applicants from the “under-represented” groups. They tell the students loudly and clearly that not only are they capable of such high demands, but they must reach them if they are to strengthen themselves academically.

[/quote]
AVID and programs like them are important, and we should fund them. But not even they are solutions. Check out, for example, AVID's eligibility requirements:</p>

<p>2.0–3.5 GPA
CTB TerraNova scores between the 41st and 89th percentiles
Teacher and administrator recommendation
Express commitment to achievement</p>

<p>Well shoot. Basically what the AVID folks are telling me is that the problem has to be solved before it even does anything. It is no solution. It is just a support for once a solution is found-- a needed support, but just a support. This program likely has very few blacks entering it because it does not hit at the base of the problem. The sort of race-sensitive policy I have advocated here hits directly at the problem. It in fact destroys the problem forever. Just pouring money in some doggone program will not work. It never has. We keep looking for silver bullets or some other quick and painless fix for a problem that took multiple centuries to create. I don't think any such quick fix exists. But if we should make very sure the Johnnys of our country are not ignored, they will bring about a fundamental change in culture that will eventually flood programs like AVID with blacks. And when AVID kicks in, these students will change the culture even more so that AVID is not even needed. It will take time - much more than the few years America wants to give it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If I have understood you correctly, then your second paragraph indicates a support for affirmative action as defined by aggressive nondiscrimination. Sir, if this is the case, then we have no argument, because I firmly believe in affirmative action as defined by aggressive nondiscrimination. Unfortunately, I am not so sure if that is indeed the case because you still support the use of race to make sure Johnny doesn’t get “left behind.”

[/quote]
I don't think it is discrimminatory to be aware of Johnny's race. It adds greater understanding of just who he is. Ignoring Johnny's race is as important as ignoring his gender because race is treated with great significance in America, as if it is objective, even though it is not. Race can help find worthy black students to maintain diversity. I know a lot of folks think diversity is not important. I love it, actually. My kids sure have benefitted from it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Black enrollment at Berkeley and Los Angeles dropped after 1996, but it didn’t go to zero. If Johnny were a Californian, I contend that the merits produced by his spirit, motivation, and work ethic would land him a spot at either of those institutions.

[/quote]
You can't really contend this, especially since the number dropped. Throwing Johnny to chance could quite easily have put him in the group of blacks that didn't get in, though he was worthy in every way. He may have just been quantitatively equal to some white or Asian guy, while having slogged his way through the sort of racism, both structural and direct, that none of these guys have had to deal with. His essay may have been better than the whites and Asians, but not knowing his race could easily have destroyed the essay's power. And mentioning his race in the essay would have destroyed the race-blind process. While it may take some time to become obvious, I think the California system will ultimately lose intellectual and cultural vibrancy with its dullheaded approach. It is overlooking unique talent because it is being forced to paint its classes by numbers.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am convinced that the student we have described can absolutely make it to an elite college solely by his developed strengths.

[/quote]
We, of course, must deal not in possibilities, but in probabilities. The probability of his making it into these schools without the schools having a fully orbed view of who he is, is very low. It is like choosing a speaker on determination, from two guys both of whom finished a marathon in 2 hrs, 50 minutes, and without knowing that one of those guys ran without legs.</p>

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<p>AdOfficer,</p>

<p>I did not state that "Some of us hope that, in the interest of social justice, we all can put aside our immediate self-interest in favor of a stronger society as a whole." I believe Momwaitingfornew did.</p>

<p>I admit that I was rude to you when I inquired about what constitutes cultural relevance. I apologize for that.</p>

<p>You did state, however, that my reference to ebonics was "not cool," especially in this thread.</p>

<p>I went back and glanced over post #318. You emphatically stated that affirmative action is not racial preference, but you did not define what affirmative action is.</p>

<p>When we choose affirmative action to address the historic prejudice, current discrimination, cultural bias in standardized tests, stereotype threat, and lack of information, are we handling the effects or the causes?</p>

<p>Certain groups in this nation have been historically mistreated. Some still experience discrimination to this day. Hence, I believe that no one should be discriminated against based on their race, religion, color, creed, or gender.</p>

<p>You still haven't convinced me that the SATS, APs, IBs, and the like are culturally biased against Blacks. I assume that you mean they're biased in favor of Whites, since they design the tests. I ask then, are Asians affected by this bias? The data does not seem to reflect that.</p>

<p>Indeed, the research of Dr. Claude Steele suggests that stereotype threat partially explains Black underachievement. If this is the case, then why admit Blacks to schools where their peers have significantly higher entry stats?</p>

<p>Lack of information in underfunded schools is a problem. Therefore, I support productively using money to create programs that educate "average" students about college admissions and encourage them to strive for excellence (e.g. AVID).</p>

<p>When I use this particular point from Drs. Bowen and Bok, I use it to refute your claim that racial preferences don't exist and that affirmative action is not being used to the extent "I think it is." If preferential treatment were nonexistent and affirmative action was minimally used, then the numbers would barely budge under a race-blind system.</p>

<p>Like I previously wrote, I respect Drs. Bowen and Bok as academicians, but their work, The Shape of the River, is not academic.</p>

<p>In science lab reports, procedures are given such that skeptics can follow the steps and verify or refute the conclusion. The Shape of the River, however, relies on private data that the Mellon Foundation will not freely offer. They're not confident releasing their data. It looks like they're afraid of too many professors using it against them.</p>

<p>If they truly believed that their work was airtight, then they'd release their data for challenges. But, they haven't.</p>

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<p>"If this is the case, then why admit Blacks to schools where their peers have significantly higher entry stats?"</p>

<p>I can answer this, although I'm sure AdOfficer will have a more complete answer.</p>

<p>Just because SATs are lower, it doesn't mean that GRADES are lower. Some people don't test well, but, if they prove they can perform well with a heavy course load and lots of ECs, then they will probably do well in college. So . . . if blacks consistently score below their school performance, one can conclude that the test is culturally biased. In the case of disadvantaged students (all ethnic groups), you can be the best in your school, but, if it's not a good one, then you won't score as well on the SAT as a more privileged student even though you are fully capable of taking full advantage of educational opportunites.</p>

<p>The test is also biased against creative thinkers, BTW. One can read too much into the questions and be handcuffed when two answers are equally possible. The writing section, although still too inconsistently graded IMO, allows for these kind of thinkers.</p>

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<p>Drosselmeier,</p>

<p>I acknowledge and recognize the cultural value of Ebonics. However, I simply don't believe that we should adopt Ebonics over Standard English in the public classroom for a certain group. It would require that everyone learn how to speak or at least understand Ebonics. And, there is no one dialect of Ebonics, further complicating the issue.</p>

<p>I think most people actually can speak at least two dialects - the dialect of the region they were raised in and their version of Standard English.</p>

<p>I see no reason why a person cannot speak both Ebonics and Standard English.</p>

<p>Indeed, just pouring money in with no focus does nothing. I agree. To me, AVID is not some silver bullet or magic recipe. It's a program that affirms the abilities of "under-represented" students, encourages them to take challenging coursework, and provides the support needed along the way. In other words, it's hard work, far from quick-acting cure-all panacea. But it's hard work that these students are able to do. They may simply have been discouraged, scared, or even unaware.</p>

<p>Sir, if race should be considered because it is significantly treated in our society, then what about religion, creed, and nationality?</p>

<p>I think one of our disagreements does revolve around Johnny.</p>

<p>I believe that we should try to find ways to increase the numbers of academically-focused "under-represented" students, but it seems that you believe we should try to find ways to make it easier to find existing academically-focused "under-represented" students. Have I understood you correctly?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I acknowledge and recognize the cultural value of Ebonics. However, I simply don't believe that we should adopt Ebonics over Standard English in the public classroom for a certain group.

[/quote]
The Ebonics people were not advocating this. Try to read about this approach from the perspective of its advocates before making up your mind about it. I think it was a bold and refreshing approach that possibly has merit. Just take a good look at it. I think guys like Rush Limbaugh and other sophists have been unfair to this approach.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It would require that everyone learn how to speak or at least understand Ebonics. And, there is no one dialect of Ebonics, further complicating the issue. I think most people actually can speak at least two dialects - the dialect of the region they were raised in and their version of Standard English.

[/quote]
Yes. I have the same misgivings about EM. Still, I also know there are a lot of racial issues to overcome where blacks are concerned, that hardly affect other groups to the same degree. EM tries to deal with this. I once read about a study where the teacher treated black English (ebonics) as one language, calling it "black English", and he treated standard English as another language, calling it "Green English", the language of money. This simple procedure allowed black students a sense that their language was being preserved and treated not as some bad thing to be replaced with standard English, but as as tool to be used in other contexts. Once this understanding was achieved, the black students took the standard English very easily, spoke it very well, and their academic performances across the board increased dramatically. That is really what the Ebonics Movement was about.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I see no reason why a person cannot speak both Ebonics and Standard English.

[/quote]
Son. Listen. I like you. But I weary of having to tell you so frequently that merely because you cannot see a thing does not mean it does not exist. One reason many blacks cannot speak Standard English is because they have a built-in cultural reticence to adopt this language, a reticence that is due to history. It is just one of thousands of downward pressures against blacks built into American society.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Indeed, just pouring money in with no focus does nothing. I agree. To me, AVID is not some silver bullet or magic recipe. It's a program that affirms the abilities of "under-represented" students, encourages them to take challenging coursework, and provides the support needed along the way. In other words, it's hard work, far from quick-acting cure-all panacea. But it's hard work that these students are able to do. They may simply have been discouraged, scared, or even unaware.

[/quote]
AVID is useful, but it cannot even begin to cure the problem because it fails to address the cultural problem that inhibits the hard work that is required to even become eligible for AVID. Giving attention to Johnny, and allowing him to achieve and raise a family, THAT solves the problem entirely.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sir, if race should be considered because it is significantly treated in our society, then what about religion, creed, and nationality?

[/quote]
Of course, since the Constitution was developed, in 1787, it has been a right that Americans can believe as they wish and be free to enjoy the benefits of the country. Not so with race, and not so with gender.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think one of our disagreements does revolve around Johnny. I believe that we should try to find ways to increase the numbers of academically-focused "under-represented" students, but it seems that you believe we should try to find ways to make it easier to find existing academically-focused "under-represented" students. Have I understood you correctly?

[/quote]
Not exactly. You keep saying you "believe that we should try to find ways to increase the numbers of academically-focused 'under-represented' students" as if that is a solution and as if that is not my goal. It is just a restatement of the problem, and its solution is indeed my goal. You advocate AVID, but AVID does not take care of the problem because it requires the student to be an "academically-focused" under-represented student before the he is permitted to benefit of it.</p>

<p>Let me put it like this:</p>

<p>Basically we are talking the same thing here. You want to apply affirmative action to under-represented students in middle and high school through AVID, ignoring them during the college admissions process. I, on the other hand, think we need to take what you advocate and then extend it all the way through the college admissions process, which gives us maximum assurance that Johnny will never get lost. He will then raise a whole family of little Johnnys who will learn Johnny's values, and who over time will enter AVID in such numbers that we will easily be able to drop the process at the college admissions level. Ultimately, AVID itself will become obsolete where blacks are concerned because very many of Johnny's kids will be hitting the colleges and many of them are going to be hitting every bit as hard as my own kids. As those kids feel their own potency, they themselves will want to end participation in anything that deals specially with them. This is the sort of approach we need to deal efficiently with this issue. It is a complex approach to a complex problem.</p>

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<p>"The test is also biased against creative thinkers, BTW."</p>

<p>This is an extremely important point. I won't hijack the thread, but it's important to make a point about this briefly, BECAUSE of all the fuss/furor over "perfect test scores." </p>

<p>It's not just the verifiable LD'ers who are compromised by the timing aspects & other parameters of the SAT. It's the artists & other creative types who can see a fifth and better response versus the 4 multiple choice options presented. This is why it's important, not to do away with all testing, but to view all such standardized testing within the context, not just of opportunity & income, but side-by-side against the other elements of the application. Unlike in many countries, the SAT I is not a "qualifier" in the U.S. It is a piece of information. Period. It is a piece of information only somewhat valuable when viewed against all other aspects of an application. It is why a student with exceptional achievement & ability in other respects will have half a prayer that someone on the committee will contextualize these scores.</p>

<p>It is why the SAT has lost some credibility as a litmus test even at schools like MIT, which has recently come to appreciate how much their institution, and the nation in general, needs <em>creative</em> scientists & technicians. MIT is less impressed by scores than it used to be & has changed its admission criteria in the hopes of locating more divergent thinkers.</p>

<p>Thanks for that, mwfn.</p>

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<p>Drosselmeier,</p>

<p>Considering that it was nine years ago (before I was politically aware), I have no idea exactly what was in the minds of those who proposed the introduction of Ebonics in public classrooms.</p>

<p>I think it was motivated by a need for redemption, but again, it happened way before I became politically conscious.</p>

<p>I'm a bit confused about 'built-in cultural reticence.' Are Blacks themselves born with such resistance, or did they become resistant as a result of unsupportive environments? There's no way that I can believe the former, but the latter is possible.</p>

<p>If there truly is a cult of anti-intellectualism within the Black community, then this needs to be solved. Given that Johnny is a highly self-motivated student, it's likely that he registered for advanced coursework by his own accord. Hence, he is not an AVID candidate as that program targets so-called "average" students and encourages them to break away from the cult and take more challenging classes.</p>

<p>You've previously stated that under a race-blind system, the sheer number ("tens of thousands") of qualified Whites and Asians would make it very difficult for Johnny to be accepted to the universities on his list. Based on that statement, I infer that there simply are not enough qualified "under-represented" candidates yet. In this case, we need to find ways to increase the number of strong Black applicants. </p>

<p>The "built-in downward pressures" you speak of are a big problem if they exist. I'd support a policy that attempts to remove them. Racial preferences in my opinion "recognize" them but do nothing to destroy them.</p>

<p>If by affirmative action you mean aggressive nondiscrimination, then I'd like to see that applied everywhere at all times! Programs like AVID simply encourage and support students to take harder classes that they otherwise might have ignored. They neither attempt to aggressively nondiscriminate nor give preferential treatment based on race.</p>

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<p>"The "built-in downward pressures" you speak of are a big problem if they exist. I'd support a policy that attempts to remove them. Racial preferences in my opinion "recognize" them but do nothing to destroy them."</p>

<p>The downward pressures are internally self-perpetuating (within the groups), rather than largely externally encouraged. "Removing them" and "destroying them" are not accomplished by those external to these pressures. That is something that Bill Cosby, quoted earlier, understands, & which is why he exhorts communities to come to terms with such habitual attitudes -- although he can relate to the presures, has witnessed them, etc. It is also why I completely understand what Drossel is saying about a critical mass within the community, providing the counter (upward) pressure, so that Johnny Role-Model from Harvard is not one-note, oddball Johnny, or perceived as a token sell-out, etc.</p>

<p>Most of the black people I know who have "made it" in mainstream, integrated society, had some major source of moral support in the form of nuclear family and/or other close relatives -- & which reinforced a pragmatic viewpoint that came to see education as a means to an end. Also those people of which I speak were educated in schools more integrated & more recognized (though public) than those that still exist in many poor, urban communities.</p>

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<p>so what if i'm an asian that plays a Varsity sport? does being captain for soccer team make them think better of me, like "omg, it's not just an asian math smart."</p>

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<p>whatever. everyone knows asians work hard, value education, and sometimes are just SMARTER. People are being jealous in funny ways. Come on.. lets be honest here. No white admissions staff would wanna see 50% of their school population dominated by asians, though it already happend in colleges like UC Berkely. that was certainly a stereotyping, biased decision... im an asian myself, but if any college reject me of being SHY/QUITE.. i'd just be laughin at their loss because im actually the most outgoing person they'd ever meet. plus.. i wouldnt wanna go to biased school like that anyways.</p>

<p>i just wanna tell the writer of the article to cheer up now :)</p>

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<p>This is probably the worst thread on CC and should die. Like now. If you are so against AA, realize, it doesn't end with college and it affects you the least in college admissions. For US Government jobs, they NEED to hire Hispanics, so they have lower standards for them. For one program my parents want me to look at, you need a 3.5 as a CS major from ANY school. A 3.4 at MIT is not considered, but a 3.5 from NCState will be (especially if s/he is black/hispanic). The government also needs to promote a certain number of URMs every year to look good, so they promote underqualified people. Trust me, college admissions is the least of your worries if you are against AA.</p>

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<p>I'm a senior, and I'm Asian. My application may make it seem like I'm a stereotypical Asian because I'm in advanced courses in math and science and want to study biology in college (I really do enjoy it). Truth be told, I really don't enjoy math that much, and I also really enjoy the humanities and make good grades in AP English and AP History classes...counting on that + my interview to set me apart. Other than being good at math and science, I wouldn't say I'm a stereotypical Asian at all, but I may appear that way on paper.</p>

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<p>I'm with venkater...we need to stab this thread over and over until it dies...</p>

<p>it reeks with negativity.</p>

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<p>venkater,</p>

<p>Your post demonstrates why racial preferences should be abolished everywhere.</p>

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<p>Aricle in the NYTs today:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/education/edlife/07asian.html&OQ=_rQ3D1Q26refQ3Dedlife&OP=4a0e62cfQ2F4o0Q3F4BT7-Q3DTTQ23M4MAAQ2F4Az4AQ2F40Bj7Q5DQ23gTY40BtgQ6004AQ2FQ5D-gQ5DYQ25Q51Q23(t%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/education/edlife/07asian.html&OQ=_rQ3D1Q26refQ3Dedlife&OP=4a0e62cfQ2F4o0Q3F4BT7-Q3DTTQ23M4MAAQ2F4Az4AQ2F40Bj7Q5DQ23gTY40BtgQ6004AQ2FQ5D-gQ5DYQ25Q51Q23(t&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>"But as the only son of professionals born in China, Mr. Hu fits the profile of Asians at Berkeley in at least one way: they are predominantly first-generation American. About 95 percent of Asian freshmen come from a family in which one or both parents were born outside the United States."</p>

<p>U.C.'s admissions policy assigns positive weight to first-generation status. This is called a "preference." </p>

<p>When this policy was instituted, btw, it was not necessarily assumed that most applicants fitting that model would be from professional overseas families. More often, that term has applied to poorer families -- East Asia, Southeast Asia, and South-of-the-Border -- who have come here without educational backgrounds in their native countries. It was to acknowledge the uphill battle such students have had without built-in family advantages.</p>

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<p>I regret starting this thread...</p>

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<p>"The diminishing number of African-Americans on campus is a consistent topic of discussion among black students. Some say they feel isolated, without a sense of community."</p>

<p>This is actually an important and forgotten point. Admissions directors at secondary schools, and at colleges, are well aware of the importance of social groupings; it's not just about inclusion & integration. Having a sense of community is important to academic success, to RETENTION and GRADUATION. (Many a black student has left a U where she or he has felt not enough sense of commonality.) Typically, for example, a private high school does not like to admit a tiny sample of any one group, to prevent such isolation.</p>