<p>How is encouraging a student to push themselves and apply to a reach comparable to giving a participation “trophy”? My niece knows it’s not a guarantee. My niece knows her safety is MSU. I already cited a David Brooks’ article in the NY Times that calls out this discouraging behavior. This semester is wildly important and the last thing she needs is some deluded counselor more or less telling her “Why bother?”. What’s even the point of senior year? Might as well tell her to coast and get ready to party in East Lansing. /eye roll</p>
<p>Pushing yourself is good. But with all the misinfo out there, a reality check is important. Sure, it can seem like a smack. I have to wonder how many of the bottom quartile are the usual athletes and etc. </p>
<p>The help we offer our kids isn’t just about their dreams or desire to take a chance. We have to help them see “what is.” And the competition for Mich is tough. “Eyes wide open” helps them assess better than raw encouragement - or outrage. No it’s not easy.</p>
<p>You make a calculated decision whether she applies. But it’s not as simple as “well, it’s holistic.”</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree that the counselor could’ve and should’ve been more tactful in how they offered advice to your niece, but obviously there are more than just this counselor who are guilty of making snap judgments and sweeping generalizations. I’m sure all the proud grads of public HS and SVSU would certainly be supportive of your position. /eye roll</p>
<p>Pot…meet kettle.</p>
<p>I would also be curious to know her test scores, which might be a factor in the GC’s attitude.</p>
<p>Also, I do not think of U of M as being as “holistic” as some other top schools. Test scores and grades seem like big drivers in the results I have seen. One of my kids (umpteen zillion legacy – both parents, 3 grandparents, a great grandparent, and several aunts & uncles) was rejected with a 3.65 and pretty good test scores. She had very strong ECs, but that didn’t get her past the grades/test scores hump. No real sweat about it, it wasn’t her top choice anyway and she graduated Phi Beta Kappa from the college she did attend. But just saying that while U of M reserves the right to be holistic when they want to, I don’t really think it works that way for most applicants.</p>
<p>It is hard to judge that counselor on what she/he said. Perhaps her comment was based on the data from previous students admitted to the UMich. You know uwGPA 4.0 at one school may mean less than 3.5 at another school. Perhaps that school has lenient curve. I agree that a counselor should not be discouraging, however, he/she should give faithful advise. I have also seen counselors that gave false hope to students that can be even more damaging. I would give the benefit of doubt to that counselor.</p>
<p>Grizzly, you might get more compassion if you weren’t making such general statements about public schools. I am a public school teacher and am personally very offended by your remarks. I can tell you that whenever a parent calls me to discuss a conversation between myself and his/her child (which isn’t very often), I am usually shocked by what the child claims I said - it is almost always nothing like what was actually said. Students (and people in general, to be honest) tend to not really listen very carefully. I would be very skeptical about what your niece said the GC said - the conversation was probably quite different from what the counselor truly said - or meant.</p>
<p>And as an aside - my children go to a public school (different than the one I teach at), and my D’s counselor was VERY helpful last year and supportive of her choices in where to apply - and I can tell you that U of M was definitely a reach for my D…but she DID get in. But my D is a music major, where the process for acceptance is very different from what most people go through when applying to colleges. And even though her GC probably didn’t know very much about applying/auditioning for music, she helped her out significantly…especially with her application to U of M. So please stop being so general in your statements and so demeaning in nature. It really isn’t becoming.</p>
<p>I’m sorry to those I offended. I hate to generalize, but this is such a common theme in many public schools, especially those that don’t have the higher class families and funding.</p>
<p><a href=“Opinion | Started at the Bottom - The New York Times”>Opinion | Started at the Bottom - The New York Times;
<p>I should note that I have met this counselor previously and she appeared to be rather clueless.</p>
<p>So… is there a reason you won’t provide your niece’s standardized test scores? Several posters have asked. Honestly, the counselor may have been correct depending on those scores.</p>
<p>Holy Cow, NYT strikes again, with an attention getting article that really doesn’t reflect much more than the narrow examples the author chose.</p>
<p>You should consider the nature of UMichigan admissions when talking to your niece and deciding how to encourage her in the college app process.</p>
<p>I don’t know enough about her background to assess chances and I’m not an admission counselor. But last year when my D applied I followed some of the UMichigan threads. You should go back and read them.There were loads of kids who were dreaming of UM and all their aspirations were wound around this school. UM seems to inspire this kind of ‘in love’ fervor. Many of those kids were deferred in EA, then waitlisted in RD. They agonized for months and couldn’t decide to commit to another school and it was all for naught. </p>
<p>Read the common data set, most recent year is 2012-13.
<a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning;
42,544 applied
15,351 admitted
13,615 offered spot on waitlist
74 admitted from waitlist</p>
<p>It’s fine for her to apply, but do it with eyes open.</p>
<p>Where I live, Madison WI, kids with 3.7 apply to the flagship all the time. And they do get their hopes up. But it’s just hope, not expectation. They know their prospects are iffy and they all apply to safety schools. </p>
<p>The real danger is in getting so besotted with the school, as UM applicants tend to do (and I expect the GC knows this), that she focuses solely on it and is miserable when she finds she has to go elsewhere. As long as she has a safety, and it sounds like she does, that she views positively and can see herself happily attending,then things will be fine. But she should shake herself sometimes and remind herself that UM is a reach, view with a clear eye.</p>
<p>As someone else mentioned, many of the admits with GPAs or test scores below the 25th%ile are athletes, artists, musicians, and others with something special to offer the university beyond their stats.</p>
<p>I agree that there are plenty of clueless guidance counselors. I just don’t think enough evidence has been provided that this one is clueless, or even rude. Your niece may be a good candidate for Michigan, or she may not.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cite your source.</p>
<p>As if 1,000 artists and musicians could offer anywhere near what Denard did…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cite your source.</p>
<p>“As if 1,000 artists and musicians could offer anywhere near what Denard did.”
What did he do outside of carrying a brown ball from one end of a grass field to another end?</p>
<p>It’s difficult to get the info as they restrict access to the more detailed reports.</p>
<p>[Facts</a> & Figures | Michigan Engineering](<a href=“http://www.engin.umich.edu/college/about/facts]Facts”>Facts & figures) By negation, it’s not the engineers in the lowest quartile.That eliminates about 20% of admits.</p>
<p>Kinesiology(all the sports degrees) somewhat lower, but not radically. Statistically significant I’d think.
[Freshmen</a> | U-M School of Kinesiology](<a href=“http://www.kines.umich.edu/undergraduate-admissions/freshmen]Freshmen”>First-Year Admissions | School of Kinesiology)</p>
<p>Art and design,much lower
[A&D</a> - Prospective Students - FAQ](<a href=“http://art-design.umich.edu/prospective/faq#what_kind_of_grades_do_i_need_to_have_to_get_into_ad]A&D”>http://art-design.umich.edu/prospective/faq#what_kind_of_grades_do_i_need_to_have_to_get_into_ad)</p>
<p>Enrolled, not admitted, sorry but these numbers are hard to come by. Pretty good ACT for business and looks like only 10% at or below 3.7
<a href=“Bachelor of Business Administration | Michigan Ross”>http://www.bus.umich.edu/admissions/UndergraduatePrograms/PDF/BBA_Class_Profiles.pdf</a></p>
<p>Music, enrolled, not admitted, but anyway more like A&D than engineering
[UM</a> School of Music, Theatre & Dance - Prospective Students](<a href=“http://www.music.umich.edu/prospective_students/admissions/ug/app_proc/acad_prep.htm]UM”>http://www.music.umich.edu/prospective_students/admissions/ug/app_proc/acad_prep.htm)</p>
<p>LSA, 57% have GPA 3.9 or above
<a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/UMICH/facstaff/Home/Office%20of%20the%20Dean/LSA%20Facts/2013_Fact_Sheet.pdf[/url]”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/UMICH/facstaff/Home/Office%20of%20the%20Dean/LSA%20Facts/2013_Fact_Sheet.pdf</a></p>
<p>Nursing is eh, Decent GPA. 76% at 3.8 and above. Not so great test scores. Data is for enrolled freshmen.
[2013</a> Freshmen BSN Profile | University of Michigan School of Nursing](<a href=“http://www.nursing.umich.edu/about-our-school/nursing-michigan/fast-facts/2013-freshmen-bsn-profile]2013”>http://www.nursing.umich.edu/about-our-school/nursing-michigan/fast-facts/2013-freshmen-bsn-profile)</p>
<p>Can’t find anything for education or architecture. So these data are presented in a way that makes teasing out the actual numbers of students below 3.7 a bit difficult., but trends are clear. Best I could do on short notice. </p>
<p>I believe stats for enrolled students are generally lower than admitted. And please don’t ask me to cite my source. It’s common knowledge, just like the fact that music and arts students get in with lower GPA than others at most schools. They have portfolios and auditions, duh.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It is common at every top university in the country that the bottom 25% of the pool has a high percentage of students with a hook – athletics, URM, parents are large donors, national or international performance in some area. No one needs to cite a source, that is how college admissions in the US works. alopez4, do you have some reason to think that Michigan handles this differently than every other top college? I don’t think so…</p>
<p>Also, the OP cited this:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Some students probably have one or the other (low GPA or low ACT). You can’t tell how students who are low in both fared. Odds are good they didn’t get accepted, though. Nor can you tell if those students had hooks. For example, one of my kids had a 3.7 GPA. But she also had fantastic test scores (2390 SAT superscore, 2350 best sitting, subject tests 800 Lit, 800 Math II). She had good admissions results (didn’t apply to U of M). But she was not low in both statistics, only one of them.</p>
<p>The OP’s niece should apply, of course. But I am guessing the GC didn’t say, “you need LIKE a 4.0 to go there”. That sentence right there tells me the niece is probably paraphrasing and you aren’t getting the exact quote.</p>
<p>3.7 is a “eyes wide” open GPA for freshman applicants. Much will depend on the ACT that is going along with that 3.7 as well as the student’s high school and where that student “sits” relative to classmates. In general our highly rated small public sends top 10% to Michigan but there are also one or two in the next 10%. Our counselors are telling kids with 3.7 or 3.8 and ACT scores above 28 to go ahead and apply but also apply to other colleges.</p>
<p>And BTW, when my first graduated the same HS in 2007 they were telling the seniors 3.7 and 27 ACT would get them in. </p>
<p>Our top 10% is less than 20 kids.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Boy, how times change. I went to beauty school out of high school while my best friend went to U-M. Her roommate dropped out first semester and she begged me to come to school “just so they don’t move that girl in the triple down the hall I don’t like into my room.” She filled out all the paperwork. In only remember writing a paragraph essay and filling in some blanks that she couldn’t complete. I started that January and graduated on time, Phi Beta Kappa, with a full scholarship that my boyfriend (now DH) found for me. That doesn’t seem to be the way it works today. ;)</p>
<p>OTOH, ChoatieKid will be touring U-M over Thanksgiving break this year while we’re visiting family in MI, but even coming from a very rigorous and well-known New England prep school, U-M is still a reach. We certainly hope they consider the rigor and type of school your child attends as there is absolutely no grade inflation at all at his school. "A"s are rare; it is not uncommon for no one in a class to get an “A” the entire trimester. 4.0? Good luck with that at his school.</p>
<p>ChoketieMom, your kid will be fine from Choke. I didn’t even apply that early and I got in with scholarship with a 3.2 from a school slightly better than choke 
</p>
<p>Admissions officers are familiar with the best of the best high schools in the nation. They know that getting an A at a Hotchkiss or a Choke is far harder than cruising to an A at Michigan, and will adjust expectations accordingly.</p>