IB vs AP vs Gifted/Honors

Pre-College Issues High School Life
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American universities (outside of Florida) have little to no idea of the nuances of what the IB program is. They look at it as an international AP program, which is what i definitely isn't.

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<p>Agreed. Universities see the same level of accomplishment for a student who does IB and a student who takes a courseload of AP classes; in reality this is not the case as the IB student receives a more rigorous courseload. </p>

<p>And why do we get college credit for HL classes only when SL classes too are college-level and as rigorous as AP classes? Well, I guess IB is not just about college credit.</p>

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And why do we get college credit for HL classes only when SL classes too are college-level and as rigorous as AP classes? Well, I guess IB is not just about college credit.

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<p>In my school, a poor, almost urban school with arouhd 3000 students, we offer IB, which the state fully funds for all students, however we also offer AP, because of the very small amount of upper teir college bound students, IB and AP are often taught in the same classroom at the same time, making it possible to easily take AP tests for SL courses</p>

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<p>Can anyone tell me the difference in difficulty between HL and SL Math in IB?
And do colleges consider the difference between during the admissions process? i.e. purely from an admissions point of view, is it preferable to perform average in HL Math, or very well in SL Math?</p>

<p>From the posts here, it looks like adcoms are not very well versed with IB, if so why would someone want to take HL Math unless they plan to major in Math in college, esp if it lowers their overall average and additionally takes away from time that could be spent on other classes?</p>

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<p>Well I would think if they had multiple IB transcripts to compare it would be obvious that it is "Higher" but I'm not so sure.</p>

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<p>very, very, very well said, 1of42.</p>

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<p>Im in 8th grade and I've been in an IB middle years program since 6th, but I know of elementary schools that start kids in IB in 3rd grade. So, IB is more of a whole curriculum than AP, which is basically a bunch of different classes that you pick and choose from.</p>

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<p>Wow, I can't believe I read the whole damn thread. haha I have to admit, some of the misconceptions about both programs are a little startling. </p>

<p>I was perusing the article someone posted from WaPo (<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012402535_2.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012402535_2.html&lt;/a&gt;) and found this quote from the head of admissions at Georgetown University: "The AP program has been in effect for a very long time. It's got a very rigorous curriculum design, and it covers the subject matter we want to see, and it's scored on a rigorous basis, whereas in IB, it's not quite as rigorous."</p>

<p>Okay- No. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Sorry, but no. Let me state from the outright that I know there are AP classes that exist that are more difficult than IB classes. JMan2306, MChong, and several other posters, it sounds like you go to these schools. These APs are populated by smart, driven kids and taught by motivated teachers well-versed in their subject matter. Kudos! You deserve all the college credit you get! Way to score high on those exams! You guys CAN be better than particular IB courses!</p>

<p>Those APs don't exist in my district. </p>

<p>I understand there must be some curriculum standardization across the country, because I think our school is undergoing a long-overdue audit from AP's central office. But only a few years ago (I think in 2003 or so?), classes designated AP didn't even require their students to take the AP exam at the end of the year. Yes, you read that right. My friend and I tease each other when we get tired of doing work that we'll drop out of IB and go back to our home school to do scrapbooking--yes, these APs take scrapbooking as test grades throughout the year, not only in English but also in government. The only 5s scored on AP Literature/Language exams weren't even scored by an AP student--they were scored by an junior in the IB diploma program. [AP and IB are weighted the same for GPA in our district.]</p>

<p>Even if our IB program is an easy IB program (for all I know, it may be-no other IB schools to compare it to in the area-though I don't think that's necessarily so, as we have 100% passing rates for 4 years in a row, since its inception), we still have particular standards which we must keep up, as we all must turn in internal assessments and Extended Essays which are sent around the world to grade. If teachers are inaccurate about predicted scores, they are penalized, and if a school's passing rates drop too low, it could be in danger of decertification (this I understand from my IB coordinator-I'll look on IBO.org a little later for verification). So when Georgetown's dean of admissions claims that AP's program is uniformly rigorous, I find myself laughing. With murder in my eyes. </p>

<p>I'd like to note that I don't mean to antagonize any APers- I know many of you work your asses off, which is what this whole argument is about. Nobody likes to think that their sweat and blood is in vain. Those of you who do score high, do work with actual standards, fantastic! Way to gain more knowledge in your particular area of expertise. </p>

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<p>Because I think this thread is directed at someone weighing the respective merits and drawbacks of each program, these are the reasons why I personally preferred the IB diploma program in my district (please, please note: these are NOT generalizations about AP/IB. These are only observations about my particular situation.): [ul]
[<em>] All the reasons 1of42 already stated so well. At IB's best moments, it really gives me a feeling of pride--to be a diploma program candidate, wow! When my mother went to post-grad in Austria (we have relatives there), her university didn't even recognize her as having graduated from high school. A diploma which is applicable on an international level--even if one never goes out of the country for school, how many people can say that?
[</em>] The way our school is set up, I was still able to participate in two sports, NHS, the literary magazine, the newspaper, academic UIL, etc. etc. while taking IB classes.
[li] When I walk through the huge halls of my (public school) home campus filled with thousands of kids, when I deal with the authority figures there, I become anonymous, a nonentity. The bureaucracy mindlessly takes over. When I walk through the smaller halls of the IB program and sit in my classes of twenty or less (yes! we are talking about public school, believe it or not!), when I talk with my IB coordinator about my schedule, I am an individual! I can recite the names of the seniors, all of twenty-nine kids (from about fifty-something), and I know what activities they participate in, what their passions are, from loving anime and the Disney princesses (lol) to volunteering in a veterinary hospital and doing lab work over the summer. Earning the IB diploma has been an amazing experience shared with my compatriots, my comrades in battle. [/ul][/li]If you are considering AP/IB and you find an IB program with the characteristics of mine, go with IB.</p>

<p>My post is overlong. I am done.</p>

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<p>nycmom369, they are really different courses. In my school district, Math SL is a one year course and Math HL is a two year course. Both consist of the same core curriculum, but Math HL goes into more depth. Math HL also consists of several options, such as discrete math and series & differential equations.</p>

<p>At our school, Math HL students are ready to take the AP Calculus AB exam at the end of the first year, and the AP Calculus BC exam at the end of the second year, although calculus is not the only area of math studied. Precalculus is a prerequisite and AP Statistics is highly recommended as there is a lot of statistical analysis the second year.</p>

<p>Math SL at our school is a precalculus and calculus course. However, precalculus topics are not covered as deeply as they would be in a regular precalculus course, and therefore it is a prerequisite for taking the course. And although students study calculus in detail, it is not intended to prepare them for an AP exam (maybe at most the Calculus AB exam). This is exactly why students at our school who take Math SL (in 11th grade) take 'IB AP Calculus BC' their senior year. This is a regular AP Calculus BC course for IB students that know some calculus from Math SL. This method seems to be more popular at our school than just jumping into Calculus with Math HL.
Taking precalculus and then Math SL also prepares you for the SAT Math IIC subject test better than taking precalculus only.</p>

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<p>Thanks mr_k, for your detailed reply.</p>

<p>Your second last sentence ("This method seems to be more popular at our school than just jumping into Calculus with Math HL") implies that Math SL is to be recommended over Math HL - am I reading this right?</p>

<p>Also, from a college admissions point of view, do adcoms give heavier weight to HL Math over SL Math, since it is very likely that students would not perform as well in HL than SL? </p>

<p>I ask b/c in my daughter's IB school, the students are being strongly discouraged from taking Math HL unless they plan to major in engineering or science in college. However, I would think that if for example you plan to major in Econ or even Psychology, Econometrics or Psychometrics involve fairly high level math, and would be much more difficult to handle in college without adequate prep before that (i.e. thru Math HL)
On the other hand, I do not want her admissions to be affected adversely since she is almost sure to not perform as well in HL than SL. (and of course the time spent in Math HL will detract from time spent on other subjects)</p>

<p>Would love to hear your thoughts - pls feel free to PM me if you prefer</p>

<p>thanks!</p>

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<p>"Also, from a college admissions point of view, do adcoms give heavier weight to HL Math over SL Math, since it is very likely that students would not perform as well in HL than SL?"</p>

<p>Adcoms would not see HL scores, because those come out after senior year. However, that doesn't necessarily mean your daughter shouldn't take the course. </p>

<p>For what it's worth: I had the option to take Math HL (Math Methods) but decided to take Math SL (Math Studies) my junior year, which turned out to be a very good decision on my part (I'm not a math person). From what I see with my friends and from what the Math HL teacher has told me, as Mr_k said, students cover the basic tenets of the AP Calculus AB curriculum in the first half of the first semester and, with a little review, are able to take the AP test at the end of the year. </p>

<p>If your daughter is really quite excellent in math/is planning to major in a math-related field, I suggest Math HL for several reasons. First, some universities and colleges don't even count SL credit when it comes to exempting out of courses. Second, she could have the option to take the AP Calculus AB test at the end of the year with a little preparation, so even though her IB scores wouldn't come out until after her senior year, the adcoms could have a look at her AP scores. Third, by and large the people I have spoken with who took Math HL in high school usually report that their post-secondary math classes are easy.</p>

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<p>thatdrattedcat, you make some good points. I like your posts.</p>

<p>AP hasn't been "standard" across the country, no doubt. You'll find some schools with AP classes that are as easy as normal classes and other schools with AP classes that are extremely tough....ones that rival classes at nearby IB schools.</p>

<p>This is why the CollegeBoard has started the AP audit process.....to make sure that AP classes throughout the nation are college-level. They are trying to "standardize" AP classes across the U.S. </p>

<p>I even heard the CollegeBoard is making an AP "Program" that would be similar to the IB Program.</p>

<p>Since this thread started, I've said the choice of IB or AP is dependent upon your situation; however, I argued that AP is more flexible and more nationally recognized. I couldn't argue on a "difficulty" standpoint because this varies from school to school. There are discrepancies in class difficulty from school to school in the IB Program as well....it's not just AP.</p>

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<p>I go to a school where they try to combine the AP and IB classes as much as possible - it's where they would throw in the requirements for both into the same curriculum. Though, this cannot be done for all classes, and I ended up having some AP-only classes, some IB-only classes, and some combined classes.</p>

<p>From what I see, AP places more emphasis on the material while IB focuses on critical thinking. Though, it could go both ways depending on how the teachers decide to teach it.</p>

<p>Overall though, I like the AP program lots better - there's a lot more flexibility, allowing me to be myself and focus my energy where I want it. I tend to view IB as college-level material in a difficult high-school setting, whereas AP tends to be a full-fledged college course at a high school campus (most the time).</p>

<p>It bothers me how some IB material may be teacher-graded while others have to be sent off to a foreign country to be graded. The requirements are just too rigid for my liking. To top it off, they basically control the student and make them learn the same things - even if it is not to their best interest. It basically takes great students and educate them all the same so they do not have any "specialty" by the time they're done with the program. If they were particularly skilled in any one area, IB evened it out. As by the laws of physics, entropy increases: the energy is still there, but it's no longer useful. Eg. someone who has mediocre language and history skills but is extremely strong in maths and sciences tends to be more useful than someone who ist just generally good (but not special) at all of the areas.</p>

<p>It's for that reason why I'm taking a couple IB-only classes but do not bother with neither the diploma nor the exams. I simply disagree with their take on education. Instead, I just take my 15 AP courses and do the other stuff on my own. For example, I'd occasionally write an extended essay on a topic I feel strongly about just because I feel like it. As for the CAS hours - I'll do those when I feel like them. It just really annoys me how hours are logged when they don't really matter. I just do such things when I feel like it's the right thing to do. Maybe they add up to 200hr, maybe not.</p>

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<p>thanks, thatdrattedcat - this helps a lot!</p>

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<p>I needed to bump this thread. There have been a lot of questions about each of these subjects, and this thread discusses it all.</p>

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<p>Regular college prep ftw!</p>

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<p>wow... how did you find this?</p>

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<p>I remember when it started, silly willy.</p>

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<p>You need 6 courses YEARLY for two years, not just 6 courses in all...you need to take 3-4 of these courses for 2 years into Higher Level. American schools don't offer it as much because AP is our "native" system and comparable, so there's no real "need" per se... but outside of the US, IBs count for way more. Inside, college admin say it's about the same.</p>

<p>I have classmates who've taken both IB and AP, and they say IB is slightly more difficult. HUGE margin of error, of course, since schools all have different systems, but the general consensus is that the IB curriculum is more analysis based and this is more difficult for most people than fact based.</p>

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<p>Are you in an American school? I don't have quoteable statistics, but don't 50% of American Diploma candidates complete it successfully, while the International average is 82%? Maybe this attitude is one of the reasons.</p>

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<p>Ap is better. I think they teach u more and u have the choice to take whatever u want. IB forces u to take some classes to get a diploma. This means u may have to take classes that u don't like so u can get the IB diploma. If u are applying to top they prolly expect IB diploma if u goto IB school. Plus i think the materail is a little bit more rigorous. I dunno a lot of smart IB students i know tend to do worse on Ap's than mediocre Ap students.</p>