<p>Bleh. One of the best courses I've taken was a non-Honors course. It's only non-Honors because the school board is a bunch of idiots who don't realize how difficult it was (think AP Bio level work). It was my Biotechnology class... sweet stuff.</p>
<p>To some degree, I'd say take what you like.</p>
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I wanted to remind everyone that this thread's topic is not on which program is more difficult. Turbotw wanted a comparison on the two.
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<p>I think by now he knows everything he could possibly want to know. :)</p>
<p>Actually, from what I've heard, IB really isn't that good. There's a lot of idiots who take it. (by the way, I heard this from Jeff Nanney (for those who dont know him, search the forums), plano west valedictorian of 2006 going to Harvard) And the teachers are somewhat clueless and inaccurate when they give "predicted" assessments of the student's performance.</p>
<p>^^At my school you have to score at least at the 85th percentile on state tests to qualify for the IB program. So here they're not really idiots...they're just not all geniuses.</p>
<p>I have one kid at a selective math/sci magnet and one at a selective full IB diploma program. They are both fabulous programs, but meet different needs.</p>
<p>DS1 is a math/CS guy. He took those APs in sophomore year, is taking lots of post-AP math/CS at school, and is self-studying other quirky theoretical stuff as well. He has time to do outside math and CS competitions (i.e., non-school-sponsored) as well. He would have been MISERABLE in an IB program that wouldn't let him take Math HL until senior year. For him, AP lets him get on to the coursework he really wants, and gives him good teachers/students who care in his other classes. </p>
<p>DS2 is a history/life sciences guy. Turned down said math/sci program as well as a humanities magnet program to attend IB. He can get both areas he loves, in depth. The IB diploma requires a well-rounded student -- min. five years of a foreign language and math goes through calc. Several of the HL courses at his school are two-year classes. </p>
<p>In addition, many kids in DS2's program will take the IB exam AND the AP for a given subject. DS2's 9th grade pre-IB English class is just as difficult (if not more) as my junior's AP Lang course.</p>
<p>From my experience on the ground at our house, DS2 in the IB program works a lot harder than DS1.</p>
<p>I think AP works for someone like me, who isnt looking for a full-fledged education in everything, but looking for deeper thinking in certain subject areas like history, english, or math.
AP is also a legitimate program in my opinion, along with the IB. It really depends on where you are and what your school offers.</p>
<p>CoutingDown, it doesn't really matter how hard it is if college admissions look at them both the same :D . And colleges are bored of seeing "well-rounded" perfect students. They like to know the applicant and it would be hard for them to tell what type of person the applicant is if they never showed any true strengths in one area. Well-rounded people are just.....boring.</p>
<p>AP lets me choose the areas I'm interested in. I am not forced to take AP's in areas I don't like. For example, I'm passionate with art, history, and math. You can bet I'm going to be taking AP Calc, AP Studio Art, AP U.S. & European History, etc. It's better for me and it lets colleges know that I'm an artistic, but math-oriented student.</p>
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CoutingDown, it doesn't really matter how hard it is if college admissions look at them both the same
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<p>Except that some people go to high school more to receive an education than to get into college. And keep in mind that success in college depends a lot on what kind of background you get in high school, which depends a lot on the difficulty of the material.</p>
<p>^ I really don't see your point. Jman made the point that APs give him more flexibility and allow him to take the courses he wants. His education is about learning what subjects HE wants, not what some board says.</p>
<p>Yes, but regardless you'd still have to learn said subjects at a certain level of difficulty. I got the impression that he claimed the difficulty level didn't matter so long as "college admissions look at them both the same," and was responding to that part of his post.</p>
<p>^Sorry, I could have worded myself better.</p>
<p>Both aren't easy and both are sufficient enough to give the student a college-level education in high school. </p>
<p>Some AP classes are more rigorous than IB classes of the same subject. I was just applying the college admissions perspective to CountingDown's case.</p>
<p>I would just like to comment on post #77 real quick.</p>
<p>"Thus, a student in AP Calculus or AP Chemistry or AP Physics learns all of the college material in one year, whereas the IB student taking the same subjects for HL takes 2 years to cover the same material. This sort of makes the IB program with regard to math and science a bit easier because you are spend a lot more time on material. "</p>
<p>IB sciences at HL do not cover the same material as what AP students learn in one year. From my experience, in the first year of IB Chemistry, all AP material was covered. Now, for the second year we are learning about new topics and going more indepth. Just wanted to clarify.</p>
<p>"Some AP classes are more rigorous than IB classes of the same subject."</p>
<p>Also, some IB classes are more rigorous than some AP classes. It can go both ways. : )</p>
<p>Gallery<em>of</em>house, you're saying that AP classes cover material faster than IB courses do. For e.g., you said that AP calculus is covered in 1 yr whereas IB math takes 2 years. However, you're leaving an important fact out here. AP Calculus is calculus and thats it. IB Math encompasses a huge area of mathematics, and calculus is just one of many. In the IB, Calculus is covered in one semester at the longest, not 2 years. The official 'duration' of the Calculus topic is 48 hours. Liberty summed it up pretty well imo.</p>
<p>Also, I think that HS is not the time to be going in depth in one subject and narrowing yourself down to that one area. HS is about getting a well-rounded education which will open doors in college. How many students get to college and then change their opinion entirely on what they want to study? Quite a lot actually. College is about narrowing down your interests and focusing in on one thing. In fact, the further you progress throughout your education (ES, MS, HS, Undergrad, grad, and lastly, phd), the more narrow your study should become. Hence thats why grads and phd's do research on sth specific and undergrads take mostly 'general' classes. Therefore, HS is def. not the place to be narrowing down your studies to one field. That's why I think the IB is great. It gives you an excellent well rounded education. With it, you can major in a wide range of areas (in college) and feel well-prepared in each of them. HS students dont need to be doing in-depth studies on differential equations. Thats college stuff.
Mb some material in certain AP courses is harder than IB. However, I think its a very significant difference that the IB is a program whereas AP's are classes. As I said in previous posts, being in a program is tougher than taking classes, especially when there are extra requirements such as EE and IA's. If you take the IB, then this is your entire curriculum (in 11th-12th grade) b/c its a program. AP is 'extra' so to say, its what motivated students do on top of their normal HS classes. AP is definetely not the 'main thing' in HS.</p>
<p>Imo, anyone can say "Ill take an AP class or two for 1 year". But I think a lot less ppl would say "Ill do a full IB diploma for 2 years. I realize that it will be my entire HS curriculum in the 11th-12th grade and that If I fail this, I basically fail HS." I don't think you fail HS if you fail an AP class, right? In addition, most IB students have to work A LOT over the summer (between 11th and 12th grade) to finish EE and work on IA's.</p>
<p>you fail high school if you fail certain ap classes...like if you fail your senior year AP gov or econ class, you cannot graduate because it is a requirement</p>
<p>"you fail high school if you fail certain ap classes"</p>
<p>But you choose to take that AP history class. At my school, you have to pass whatever history class you are taking to be able to graduate. For example, government is needed to graduate. This can be standard government, advanced government, or AP government. It's up to the student.</p>
<p>I read up to Page 4 of this thread and then I got bored.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: Any anecdotal evidence posted by me in no way reflects the population. Therefore, I urge you to keep in mind it is simply an individual's thoughts upon the matter, and I do not say them as truth. To try to sway my opinion - or anyone else's for that matter - with solely your opinion, and not evidence is an absurd notion to say the least. Additionally, this is not directed to anyone in particular; it is more a discourse that I am writing out of boredom – and avoidance of homework. I cite no statistics save those from CollegeBoard or my teacher's classes. So without further delay: the personal observations of a high school student.</p>
<p>I am a senior in high school; and I have never taken any IB courses. I have taken AP courses, and while not as many as some students on this board, I still have a decent number under my belt. None of my AP classes thus far have been challenging to me; it may be challenging to other people. As such, difficulty of a class - obviously - cannot be used as a factor in determining whether AB or IB is better because it is subject to many other factors: individual learning styles (I read that the IB tests are more writing-catered), teacher's aptitude, textbooks used, etc. To illustrate this, I'll use an example of several teachers at my school. </p>
<p>First, there's the AP US History teacher; he maintains a pass rate of around 85%, which is much higher than the national average. Most people will say, so what - it's only 85% pass rate of a self-selected group of students that chose to take the test. Well, at our school, the only self-selection is opting to take AP US History, and believe me when I say this, some of the kids that choose to enroll are not the brightest. Once they're in the class, they can only drop it with the teacher's approval; moreover, they sign a form that requires them to take the AP Exam at the end of the year. If they do not, they recieve an F for both semesters of the course. To be able to maintain an 85% pass rate while other teachers in the district cannot do so demonstrates that maybe it's student demographics (as our district does not allow the students to choose which school to attend; it is based upon where the student lives) or its the quality of the teaching or the materials used, etc. Also, it has come to my understanding that for IB Diplomas, there is an essay that is required - a 4000 word research paper. Though not strictly an independent research paper done on any topic, the US History teacher at my school does make students write a paper for a grade - the Concord Essay. If they opt not to write it, the student will most likely fail. As such, all the students taking AP US History also write essays - or research papers - in excess of 5,000 words as that is his minimum requirement. There have been essays turned in that were 15,000 or 20,000 words. </p>
<p>Second, there's the AP Statistics teacher. I peruse these forums and have checked collegeboard's average national pass rate for Statistics. People seem to struggle with the exam; and the national pass rate isn't too high. Keeping in mind, this is from a self-selected group of students that opt to take the test, that’s not too good. Nonetheless, my teacher managed to have his entire class pass last year, and the year before that. That is 100% of two years worth of students, approximately 140 students. Yet it doesn’t stop there, most of the students that pass obtain scores of 4s and 5s, not 3s. Last year, I recall as I was part of that class, fewer than 10 students (the exact figure eludes me at this point) got a 3; the rest got 4s and 5s. My teacher has been teaching AP Statistics for eight or nine years; and the most impressive part is that on three of the years, he got 100% pass rate. I believe it was that third 100% year that it was ALL 4s and 5s, no 3s. Additionally, his overall pass rate for all the years combined is over 96% (maybe over 98%, again the exact figure eludes me, but it is high). This clearly demonstrates that regardless of how difficult the test may be for students, pending the teacher, the demographics, and all other variables, high pass rates can be achieved. [I also forgot to mention that my school is a public school; there are no special qualifications to attend provided the student lives in the zone]. </p>
<p>That has been my experience attending a public high school where AP is offered. But what’s my point?</p>
<p>My point is that AP and IB, for the most part, are labels. Why? In the end, teachers are running the class, not CollegeBoard or the IBO. They merely maintain the curriculum that teachers must teach; and then they make lots of money. Do I think that AP and IB classes are good? Certainly. Is one better than the other? No. They’re only labels. At my school, there is Honors English 9 and 10, but only AP English 11 and 12 – no honors. There used to be an Honors English 11 until CB implemented two different English AP Tests. The material, for the most part, remained the same, and it was only the two things that changed: the name of the course and the mandatory AP Exam taken in May. </p>
<p>I cannot iterate enough: AP and IB cannot be compared directly and no solid statement can be said with respect to their effectiveness. As such, the only conclusion that I can reasonably come to is to say that they both have their merits just as a Honda may have its merits and a Toyota may have its merits. One is not necessarily better than the other (and I forewarn you, please do not fall prey to attacking my analogies if you choose to respond to my post, but respond to the actual content of my post).</p>
<p>An AP student will say AP is better; an IB student will say IB is better. Unless you’re me; I will say IB is better but my reasons are unfounded. I say it… no rather, I opine it (keep in mind this is all opinion) because I take AP and am displeased with it. The classes are too easy and the tests have been relatively easy as well. Though I would note that that might not be attributable solely to AP, as I also dislike most everything academic about high school. As such, I merely play ignorant and hope that IB is better. Yet when it comes down to it and I look at it from the outside, it doesn’t matter because neither is better than the other.</p>
<p>That’s my post, sorry for it being long. And though that will deter many from reading it, and though I know that people will still continue this argument for a long time, if even one or two posters read my response and agree, then there’s two posters less quibbling over things. All in all, the chicken or the egg?</p>
<p>It depends on the teacher who is teaching the class and the student who is learning. I go to a school where there are no gifted/honors programs so I don't know what to say about that. My school does have IB and AP courses. However, the selection is limited. This year I am taking AP US, IB Economics, Spanish 4, Advanced Algebra, IB Literature and IB Biology. From my experience, I prefer the IB courses. I would like to take AP courses of my choice but as I said, my school does not have a variety of courses. We have a limited choice in what we take for IB, IB Physics or Biology, Economics, Spanish or French etc etc... We were automatically put into AP US. Most students who enroll in an AP class have a choice but at my school they just sort of throw us in and hope we don't sink. That's why my school was voted #4 in the US in Newsweek for the most students who take IB and AP courses. However, at my school, we never hear of anyone who gets 4s or 5s on the AP exam. Meh.</p>
<p>Fizix:</p>
<p>Thank you, I certainly do know, now, everything I ever wanted to know about AP and IB... but nobody even considered the gifted/honors in the thread title! How obsecure!</p>
<p>that's because honors is definately not as advanced as AP or IB ............... the real thing that is being argued is which is better which is a question that can't be answered....all you can do is tell the difference between the 2 which I'm sure we hve enough information about them by now</p>