IB vs AP vs Gifted/Honors

Pre-College Issues High School Life
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<p>Many of you seem to be forgetting that the IB is intended for use as an international curriculum for students studying abroad, expatriate families, foreign immigrants, etc. It was not designed for use by all university-bound American high-schoolers, as was the AP curriculum. Having personal experience in both an American public high school and a small international school abroad, I can assure you that the AP has its place in the American schools and the IB its place in the international schools. One of the most important aspects of the IB is the internationalism, global citizenship, and tolerance that it incorporates into learning. The curriculum was originally intended to be taught by teachers from all over the world, to students from all over the world. If that environment is absent, I believe the IB curriculum loses a lot that it is valued for. I’m by no means saying that the atmosphere in an international school is superior to that in an American school, but I do feel that the IB is designed to benefit SIGNIFICANTLY those students who are willing and able to learn from a global perspective, particular in the languages and humanities.</p>

<p>Remember also, that expat students are in a different situation to the average valedictorian students in a suburban high school in the Midwest. The IB is designed to accommodate students living abroad and encourage their active involvement in the community. Consider, for example, writing your Business Internal Assessment in a foreign country. A simple assignment for the average American student, but what if all the information you obtain (surveys, budget reports, interviews—they are all necessary) is in a foreign language and based on a foreign business system? Things become very difficult. Now how about your History Internal Assessment? Uh-oh, the local library only has my books in German... Same with Extended Essays. Having done mine in science, I had to work with a foreign research institute and use their equipment. Sorry, it’s not quite as convenient as America.</p>

<p>Now I’d also like to praise the IB for the coursework that it requires in order to evaluate candidates. High level sciences require 60 hours of lab work and subsequent laboratory write-ups—documents which often reach 20-30 pages in length. There are also internal assessments, and the extended essay—both of which have been wonderful experiences for me and my peers. Whoever downplayed the extended essay earlier needs to snap into reality—writing a publishable research paper independently is not an easy task. These papers are often unique research or highly analytical pieces that require 100+ hours of lab work or thought.</p>

<p>Finally, I’d again like to emphasize that for foreign IB students the CAS requirement is a significant barrier. Why? Because again, it was designed to encourage involvement in a foreign community. No, it was not designed for America, where it’s simple business popping into a retirement home, or a hospital, and reading stories to the ill. I’m sure some will say I’m trying to make an excuse for not doing enough community service. But honestly, I’ve done my best, fulfilled the requirement, and feel like it was an accomplishment. Furthermore, most foreign international schools end classes much later than American schools. That cuts down time for ECs and community service.</p>

<p>Maybe this only applies to the international schools I’m familiar with (quite a few, by the way). But honestly, I have friends in AP classes in America, and while they are able to pursue more electives and ECs, I don’t think they spend as much time studying as the typical foreign IB student. But again, that’s not to say that the IB is superior—both have their benefits to students in different situations.</p>

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<p>Well put Chris, well put.</p>

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<p>FTW stands for 'For the win.'</p>

<p>Also, in my school board, IB doesn't cost anything.</p>

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<p>
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Whoever downplayed the extended essay earlier needs to snap into reality—writing a publishable research paper independently is not an easy task. These papers are often unique research or highly analytical pieces that require 100+ hours of lab work or thought.

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<p>At our school people usually don't do their Extended Essays on unique research or anything that requires much analysis. You should see the teachers complaining about the failure to spell check, etc. The EE is considered one of those silly IB requirements that people typically just blow off anyway.</p>

<p>Only two or three people at our school have actually written publishable research papers, and they'd much rather publish such papers than hand them over to the IBO.</p>

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<p>the quality of the extended essays in no way correlates with how good IB is as a program. if students choose to blow the EE off, then it is a reflection of lazy students, not the IB program. I'm just finishing my EE, which is on a pretty interesting topic, and it is noy EASY to write a 4000 word independent research paper, so I agree with chriscap regarding whoever said the extended essay was easy.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I wasn't referring to the Princeton reference, but as I previously stated I am not going to continue debating something with someone who is arrogant, closed-minded and can not comprehend that IB is better than AP. I have much more productive tasks to complete

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Am I the only one that finds this absolutely amusing?</p>

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<p>I'd like to note that having done publishable research (and I have the credentials to back it up, PM me if you want these) I can say that real research borders on the line of 400+ lab hours and at least a thousand hours of thought. I'm not saying that you can't do it in less time, hell I have recently thought of a topic I could pursue in maybe 50 lab hours and publish, but if you are trying to answer the truly difficult questions, I doubt it. </p>

<p>Word count means nothing, when you cite 4000 words note I've seen real papers push 15,000 (and mine is bordering around 10,000). At this point I can say that having seen both programs myself, you cannot argue in any context that the EE is a huge thing that differentiates IB from AP.</p>

<p>I think on the whole, the IB program is an excellent program. AP program is also excellent, and offers more flexibility, which means in ways you can go beyond the IB curriculem, but you can also screw yourself over. </p>

<p>However, if you are interested particularily in the math / science / technology / engineering, I'd suggest AP, just because you can get a head start. This is intended if you are particularily gifted though (not meaning "oh i'm smart, = i'm gifted, it means you're taking Calculus BC around 9th - 10th grade, and will likely have covered multivariable calc, lin alg and diffy q by the end of HS). If you take the AP program you can self study classes and knock a lot of lower level science and math's out of the way.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Quote:
I wasn't referring to the Princeton reference, but as I previously stated I am not going to continue debating something with someone who is arrogant, closed-minded and can not comprehend that IB is better than AP. I have much more productive tasks to complete
Am I the only one that finds this absolutely amusing?

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<p>Now that you point it out, it is quite ironic. He called me arrogant, but then said that I cannot comprehend that IB is better than AP. lol</p>

<p>I think some of us are looking at this IB vs. AP thing from different perspectives. Alot of you are looking at it from a rigorous and prestigious view, whereas I am looking at it from a logical and practical view. Of course IB is going to be more rigorous than most AP classes. It's taught from a global perspective rather than a U.S. perspective. The U.S.'s high schools are horrible compared to schools in other countries, especially Europe.</p>

<p>However, most of us here are in the U.S., and AP is the best choice for U.S. students who plan to stay in the U.S.; AP was designed for U.S. high schools. Obviously, the AP program is going to have a greater advantage over the IB program in the United States.</p>

<p>But, AP is worth nothing if you plan to study abroad. That is when IB is superior.</p>

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<p>I am a full IB Diploma Candidate. Most IB classes in our school are combined with AP (the science ones). Those classes are taught AP style and have good pass rates on BOTH AP and IB tests. IN THEORY, IB is supposed to have higher levels of thought/analysis but as ALL of us know its basically just BS. All the extra assignments (G4P projects, Extended Essay, etc) i just BS because THEY DONT MATTER and are pointless assignments. I just love how that one guy criticizes those who dont do the extra assignments seriously calls them "lazy students"as if hes superior and is the best student who ALWAYS works 100%.</p>

<p>My sister who finished the the IB program says it was pointless, But i did it anyway. Why? It just MIGHT help when it comes to college admissions. Thats why.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'd like to note that having done publishable research (and I have the credentials to back it up, PM me if you want these) I can say that real research borders on the line of 400+ lab hours and at least a thousand hours of thought. I'm not saying that you can't do it in less time, hell I have recently thought of a topic I could pursue in maybe 50 lab hours and publish, but if you are trying to answer the truly difficult questions, I doubt it.

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<p>Well put. NOBODY does truly publishable research and doesn't publish it. It's career suicide. If IB students were required to do publishable research in high school 90% of them would get into MIT.</p>

<p>Go to <a href="http://www.nature.com/nature/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nature.com/nature/index.html&lt;/a> and see how the articles compare to your Extended Essays.</p>

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<p>Well the point of that reply was indeed to show that it is wrong to say that all IB EE's are real research. Also, you drew a horrible comparison fizix. Nature publication standards are the highest level of distinction in academia (maybe Science, and some IEEE journals and arxiv come to mind). The majority of scientists do NOT publish in these journals (about 5% of postdocs get published in nature). Consider such journals as Journal of Bacteriology, etc for comparison. You'll be surprised what does get published out there.</p>

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<p>I'm a potential IB diploma candidate. I also attend a school where you get kicked out if you do not aim for the diploma.</p>

<p>The merits of IB and AP can only be evaluated if they are both put into effect with proper teachers, rigorous coursework. I live in a school district where the IB program is at a completely different school from the main 3 high schools. We started out with roughly 50 juniors; we are at about 30 right now. But, if you look at the AP programs in the other high schools, you conclude that AP sucks. This is not a universal claim however. The fact is that a small minority of students even pass their AP exams edit: in my school. In this case, IB comes out on top. (We have a 100% IB diploma graduation rate.)</p>

<p>AP has less requirements that make it paradoxically(is this a word?) difficult and easier. If you are good at the respective sections tested on the AP test, you're set. If not, then you're screwed. IB has more requirements. Just for my English HL class I have to do 2 World Lit. papers, an oral presentation, a commentary, and then still take the actual test.</p>

<p>The level of analysis required as part of the diploma programme (I hate the way IB pretentiously spells everything) can be debated. I think a good example to use would be history. "History of the Americas", as the IB likes to call it, tests are evaluative essays, constantly asking "to what extent" questions. Besides being annoying, these kind of questions require us to never make use of dates. All you need to know is general trends and historic events, with sufficient background knowledge to be able to answer the question. Looking at Barron's AP reviews, even the multiple choice, are much, much more specific.</p>

<p>Also, the IB diploma program is different because it requires something else. On top of the rigour of the courses, the loss of sleep, your goal throughout the entire thing is to get another diploma. This comes with more requirements. In the IB diploma program you are required to take at least 6 courses. I don't even think my home high school even has 6 AP courses. This is something to consider.</p>

<p>In my school district, IB definitely comes out on top. But, the fact that I don't personally know anything about the rigor of "certificates" could potentially undermine the rigor of IB.</p>

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<p>Most people I've talked to in the states (teachers, professors, students, etc.) hardly understand the IB. Most see the IB as classes, which is what AP's are: classes. However, those ppl fail to realize that its an entire diploma/program and that many many many extra things have to be done to receive this diploma. And don't say "w/e EE and CAS doesnt make IB harder than AP, they're only small things" b/c they aren't. As chris said, you often need 100+ hours just for your EE. And who cares if most ppl blow the EE off anyway? Thats their problem. If we're comparing a top student taking AP vs. a top student doing IB diploma (and in both cases, the students do all the work to the best of their ability), then IB will come out on top. I dont really know exactly what material is covered in an AP course, however, those ppl don't have to write internal assessments, right? Correct me if I'm wrong. IA's are another thing that make the IB so hard. They certainly made my 12th grade fall semester the worst one I've ever experienced. </p>

<p>Mb those ppl just like to see the IB as classes so they have sth to relate the IB to: AP classes.</p>

<p>Honestly, If I was completely ignorant about all of this and had to compare 1) taking a bunch of classes vs. 2) doing an academic program, that not only consists of a bunch of classes, but other 'extra' things like EE + IA + CAS, I would definetely, just by my gut feeling, say the latter would be harder. This is assuming the material in both options has the same difficulty.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

Honestly, If I was completely ignorant about all of this and had to compare 1) taking a bunch of classes vs. 2) doing an academic program, that not only consists of a bunch of classes, but other 'extra' things like EE + IA + CAS, I would definetely, just by my gut feeling, say the latter would be harder. This is assuming the material in both options has the same difficulty.

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<p>Harder? Maybe. Worth it? That's the question.</p>

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<p>Good point, however I do think having to write an EE + a bunch of IA's and having to do CAS is, believe it or not, beneficial in college and mb even later in life. An EE and most IA's (particularly History and Business IA) prepare you well for the research you're going to have to do in college to write certain papers. Although still somewhat easier (its HS), they are pretty close to a lot of college papers one will have to write in terms of the skill required to research + write them. CAS, however boring and/or irritating it may be, might eventually change your opinion on helping others out/serving the community or w/e.</p>

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<p>M4gici4n: While there is no doubt that the IB program is excellent (I did IBMYP for 5 years before switching over to AP at a Math & Science Magnet), I have to argue that you can't draw simple conclusions like that about AP exams. First, we are debating on CC, which means that we are able to freely acknowledge that many kids take a lot of AP exams their freshmen/sophomore year. As I said earlier, AP is a double edged swords: it can easily make you look better or worse than if you were in the IB program. How do you counter that IB restricts you from taking higher level courses? For example I cannot take differential equation or any analysis course. What happens when I completed the AP Physics C curriculem and got double 5's on the exam my sophomore year? How can the IB program cater to that? IB Computer Science is laughably simplistic (I took AP Comp Sci AB and was in the class with the IB kids). The IB program excels at the humanities and social sciences, but I'm quite convinced that a very motivated AP student can crush most IB contenders.</p>

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<p>Differential makes a very good point. The IB program is excellent for those who are not going to take advanced science and math courses in high school. But for the student who wishes to acquire enough knowledge to do reputable research in math/science courses, the AP route provides more options. AP courses are taught in 1 year compared to IB Math and Science courses, which are taught over the span of 2 years. Thus, a student in AP Calculus or AP Chemistry or AP Physics learns all of the college material in one year, whereas the IB student taking the same subjects for HL takes 2 years to cover the same material. This sort of makes the IB program with regard to math and science a bit easier because you are spend a lot more time on material. In college, you do not have this luxury, you will be zooming through material in a semester or a year. And even if the motivated student in IB could finish the science courses in one year, he/she still has to wait to take the exam because of the structure of the IB program. A motivated IB student can't take the IB Chemistry exam in his/her sophomore year. </p>

<p>So, the AP route lets students take these courses earlier and move on to Organic Chemistry, Analytical Chemistry, Modern Physics, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, etc. And having taken Organic Chemistry in high school, this type of course is very rigorous compared to IB or AP courses. </p>

<p>And reputable research that comes by obtaining knowledge in these upper courses far outweighs research done through the EE. How many EE projects do we see gaining much recognition in competitions such as Siemens or Intel? We see a lot more research in these competitions from students who just have a passion for what they do and push themselves by finding ways to do it themselves. As a Siemens Regional Finalist, I know that I spent many more hours than an IB student does on the EE essay. 4000 words for research is not grandeur. </p>

<p>Pretty much, it's give or take...what do you really want to do in high school. If you want the structure and well-roundedness, take IB. If you want to move a little bit faster without meeting certain requirements, take AP.
The IB program may be difficult, but the AP is not a program. APs are courses. If you compare the equivalent IB and AP courses, they are about the same in difficulty. With AP again covering the material in 1 year. And a dedicated student who aspires to do research can make his AP path/college level classes much more difficult than the IB program.</p>

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<p>Hehe, boy did I start a good thread. I enjoy reading this literature. ;)</p>

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<p>
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Well the point of that reply was indeed to show that it is wrong to say that all IB EE's are real research.

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<p>Yes, I was agreeing with the reply. :)</p>

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[quote]
Also, you drew a horrible comparison fizix. Nature publication standards are the highest level of distinction in academia (maybe Science, and some IEEE journals and arxiv come to mind). The majority of scientists do NOT publish in these journals (about 5% of postdocs get published in nature). Consider such journals as Journal of Bacteriology, etc for comparison. You'll be surprised what does get published out there.

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<p>Oooh. Apologies for the comparison, then. I was under the impression that Nature was a typical scientific journal since it's the only one my advisor suggested I submit my paper to. :/ But this is good news for me, I suppose.</p>

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<p>I wanted to remind everyone that this thread's topic is not on which program is more difficult. Turbotw wanted a comparison on the two. </p>

<p>Whether IB is or is not more difficult than AP does NOT MATTER. College admissions officers do NOT place one higher than the other. </p>

<p>AP was designed for U.S. schools. It very much reflects what college courses entail and it prepares high school students for the future.</p>

<p>I don't mean to be harsh, but it is quite simple to understand that AP is better for high school students than IB in U.S. universities. If you don't understand why, then take a class in logic.</p>