If you could change one thing about the college admissions process

Parents Forum
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<p>This is an interesting thread. My one thing to change, noted above, was to get rid of some early decision programs. </p>

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<p>And of course we would all like to know more about the process. I'll praise U.S. News here, not because I think that their college ranking issue is the last word on which college is good, but because their widely publicized effort to rate colleges was an important first step leading to greater transparency in the process. Now a lot of colleges publish their Common Data Set filings on the Web, </p>

<p><a href="http://airweb.org/links/cds.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://airweb.org/links/cds.cfm&lt;/a> </p>

<p>and the Common Data Set initiative was largely prompted by U.S. News. Interest in this issue has resulted in other organizations gathering federal data and posting that on a convenient Web site </p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeresults.org/default.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeresults.org/default.htm&lt;/a> </p>

<p>and has prompted other periodicals to post different takes on what makes a college a good college. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.collegechart.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.collegechart.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p><a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/good_university_guide/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/good_university_guide/&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Academic researchers have gotten into research on this subject also. </p>

<p><a href="http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Today, there is much more information about many more colleges readily available to parents in the comfort of their own home than there was when I applied to college. </p>

<p>Yes, I'd still like more transparency. As it is, the Common Data Set methodology gets beyond a how-to-lie-with-statistics trick used by colleges when they report stats for their admitted class but don't report stats in press releases for their ENROLLED class. Using the Common Data Set information wisely can help you learn a lot about a college.</p>

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<p>I understand the problems with ED, but I fail to see the issue with EA (not including SCEA). At a couple of schools I follow there appears no difference in the economic or racial background of EA and RD kids. They both breakdown pretty much as mini has described in many other posts.</p>

<p>I, for one, would like to see less an emphasis on EC's outside the normal kid stuff. I see too many manufactured academic, service, and leadership EC's nowadays. I like the response of one UChicago admissions counselor who said I would like to see a kid saying, "I spent the summer sitting under a tree reading books."</p>

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<p>"What troubles me is that some colleges are making a major effort to recruit more internationals. I know Harvard is (it made a point of that in its press release about its applicant numbers), and when I was at Brown in the fall the director talked a lot about its overseas recruiting and how the admissions person kept running into other adreps wherever she went. </p>

<p>By amping up their recruiting, colleges are saying they want more internationals to apply. Which means one of two things -- either they want to increase the percentage of internationals on campus, which would bump nationals off campus, or they want more applications for the same number of spots, making it even more difficult for internationals to get accepted. So, in some ways I agree with menloparkmom."</p>

<p>My point exactly. If the number of openings for students is increased, then no problem, but few, if any colleges are increasing their class size in order to accomodate more students. So the push for qualified international students is going to eliminate qualified students from this country from consideraton. And yes, there are millions of international students whose who are more academically advanced in part because their educational system is more rigorous than ours[ more hours per day, days in school per year, etc]. So what is fair to the top students educated in the this country?</p>

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<p>What kind of "top students educated in this country" are we talking about here? I'm having severe trouble imagining any circumstance in which a top American student wouldn't get into a good college that is affordable to that student's family, so please educate me about what examples you have in mind. The more specifics, the better for understanding where you are coming from. As for me, I don't worry about it at all. The top students I know in my town all have a variety of college choices.</p>

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<p>take a look at Andi's posts for a perfect example. What went wrong.....</p>

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<p>Stanford's admission director also announced S's intention to do more marketing toward and recruiting of international students as well as a broader range of American students. I'm agreeing that certain top colleges are saying that they want to attract and admit more international students. But, MPM, I'm afraid that I don't agree that universities should curb admission of internationals in favor of U.S. kids. I have to agree that the presence of international students on a campus enhance the educational experience of the American students in ways that can't be quantified.</p>

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<p>I find the push to transparency interesting. Folks seem to want the admissions process to be a spreadsheet -- if you have score in X-Y & GPA of U-V, you're in. In reality, I don't think it works that way. Nor should it.</p>

<p>College and/or universities are learning communities. Students are being assessed as to whether they can thrive there. Thrive, here, means (to borrow from Lemony Snicket) to achieve success while growing and learning.</p>

<p>I think that much of the so called lack of transparency has to do with the school's working to find students who are a match -- those who will thrive in their communities. It's not just 2250+ and A++++ average that decides things, it is having a personality and temperament that are compatible.</p>

<p>I think that the notes on admission to MIT are illustrative. Paraphrasing & simplifying, they use the objective things (the scores) to determine if the student has the capability to survive the academics. However, the real determinants are the group skills, creativity, etc. These are the temperament elements that are critical to the community.</p>

<p>Similarly, when the student is determining which school to attend, they don't go by the numbers. They have to figure out which is the best fit. Something us parents probably find decidedly non-transparent.</p>

<p>Just another perspective...</p>

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<p>But andison didn't have safeties. His GC had misled him into thinking that Oberlin, Swarthmore and Wash-U, I believe, were safe for him. He needed a more balanced list.</p>

<p>I love Grinnell's practice of "early writes". My son got one last week and it was a huge relief. If every college (except the Rolling Admissions ones) would notify a percentage of their top picks early, and if everyone had a balanced list of schools, everyone would likely hear about at least one school early. It could reduce the angst of waiting considerably.</p>

<p>I also like the ideas of taking selectivity out of the ratings equation because it is self-perpetuating and leads to questionable practices.</p>

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<p>I think the view of international students in this thread is over-simplified. However going into detail about the whole range of international students should be a different thread. So I just want to restricted it to elite college here. The international students in elite colleges are either very very good, as many have already pointed out, or they are very rich or powerful in their own country. The reason the elite colleges want to accept the rich or powerful internationals are the same reason they want to accept the local ones. Elite colleges want to educate future leaders, either American or the world. Also they paid full freight, and are potential donors. Gordon Wu, Princeton alumni, is supposed to have donated over $100 million to Princeton.</p>

<p>However, this is usually only true for elite colleges.</p>

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<p>Bethievt, good point about Andison's son. I think it is also important to keep in mind that, while his case was unfortunate, instances of students being rejected from every school where they apply are very rare and uncommon. It can happen, but the odds are pretty good that it won't.</p>

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<p>I wonder would this idea work. Make application a two step processes, a short preliminary application first then an invited full application. You could of course go directly for full application if so determined.</p>

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<p>Good responses, bethie and carolyn . The problem was there were no schools below the "most selective" category on the boy's list. With andison's fabulous stats and wonderful ec's a couple schools he loved in the "very selective" category would have been enough to balance out the list.</p>

<p>I just get the feeling that the complaint is not that internationals are taking up American spaces at Mac or Grinnell or Oxy or Dickinson or Vandy or Emory or USC, but that they are taking up those spaces at HYPSDMC. ;)</p>

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take a look at Andi's posts for a perfect example.

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<p>I've read Andi's posts with great care and commented in her original thread. I was glad for her to see in the follow-up thread that her son was admitted to MIT. That, I think, doesn't evidence a pattern of American students being squeezed out of top colleges by international students. Are there any other examples that provide better evidence? </p>

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<p>But what I don't recall about his case is just what his stats were. (His detailed stats weren't in the same thread where I read about the disappointing results of his first year of applying to colleges.) I wonder what the exact context was.</p>

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<p>Trust me. Killer stats. Big time woohoo killer stats.</p>

<p>Think: over 2300 + Carnegie Hall (or NPR for sure or maybe both?) + commensurate GPA and rank and EC's . No runs, no drips, no errors. ;) "Concours" or "showroom mint". In other words I thought he was a pretty good kid. ;)</p>

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<p>curm and carolyn</p>

<p>I got the same impression about the International students argument. If only 10 or 20 schools are on the "acceptable" list, some kids, no matter how exceptional, aren't sure of getting a place at those schools. There just aren't enough polaces at those 10 or 20 for everyone who wants in. These schools shouldn't have to do without the wonderful diversity International students offer in order to squeeze in a few more US students. Rather, it would behoove students (and their parents) to add diversity to their "acceptable" list of colleges.</p>

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These schools shouldn't have to do without the wonderful diversity International students offer in order to squeeze in a few more US students. Rather, it would behoove students (and their parents) to add diversity to their "acceptable" list of colleges.

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<p>Yes. Being picky about size, region of the country, or U.S. News ranking sometimes causes families to overlook some very good schools that would be glad to admit their children.</p>

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<p>Curious14: as Emperor of the Universe, if any new entity in current time attempted to come up with a stats-based approach reducing colleges and universities to a single number posing as objective, there would be no need for time-travel ops. They would be paid a visit by a few men and women wearing dark glasses, trench coats, low-brimmed hats, strange electronic ear pieces, and barely perceptible bulges under one armpit and subsequently the project would be shelved. Being Emperor of the Universe has its advantages. Except for nagging problems like the intelligent beings of Deneb IV, who resemble giant squid, being inadvertently served up as calamari at a state dinner when the entered the palace complex via the kitchen entrance.</p>

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Should International students be admitted instead, in the name of diversity?

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The beauty is that there is a wide range of schools, that they are not all alike. Students (or parents, if that's the case) can choose a school with the level of diversity with which they are comfortable. </p>

<p>I, for one, would like to continue the "melting pot" tradition of the US by encouraging the admittance of international students. In addition to the usual benefits, many remain in the US after graduation; they help to raise our average educational level, which in turn helps the US compete in the global economy.</p>

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Get rid of the common app too.

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<p>janesmom1: Great idea--I was thinking the same thing. Whatever benefits the common app. brings to the application process, as far as convenience, are more than offset by the overloading of the admissions system with some kids applying to something like 15-20 colleges. (Besides, each school still has its own supplement, usually w/ essays that needs to be filled out, so they might as well just stick to their own individual applications)</p>

<p>I also like the idea of getting rid of ED and issuing admissions decisions on a rolling basis.</p>

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<p>Many US-graduated students are leaders in their own country. That is a benefit that cannot be readily meausred. Likewise, many US students go abroad for their college.</p>