<p>I totally support US colleges opening their doors to foreign students. It's a big world with lots of great students outside of the US. These students enrich our campuses by thier presence and constitute our best shot at improving the image of the United States around the world. </p>
<p>I think it is pure sophistry to maintain that these students don't take someone elses place. It can be the place of a student whose dream was MIT or a student whose dream was a major flagship state university. It doesn't matter, more students of one kind mean less of another. In this aspect it is zero-sum game. This is about choice and tradeoffs let's not pretend that it isn't. </p>
<p>I support having international students at all US colleges and universities even if it means telling some US kids to take something less than they had hoped for.</p>
<p>I agree with you about the role of USNWR (post #61). They played an important role in forcing standardization of the reporting of college data. Some colleges still try to get away with posting the stats of admitted rather than enrolled students on their websites.</p>
<p>Transparency requires data. Those who argue that the whole process is just to difficult to quantify, so just let us (ad coms) take care of it, are the enemies of transpanency. For example, while an instate student with 2300 SAT's may be very different from a particular out of state student with the same scores, there is no reason to believe that the whole group of instate students differs in some systematic way from all out of state candidates in terms of ECs, essays, grades etc. As a result, it is really helpful in assessing chances of admissions to know that the SAT range is 50, 100, 200, or 300 points higher for an out of state student.</p>
<p>What I object to in your post is students taking "less than they had hoped for". Carleton is NOT less than MIT. It is different. (ok, you didn't name names, but I think it's just silly that so many parents and students are fixated on this tiny group of schools. They are NOT the best for everyone. My high achieving kid would far rather be at Carleton. MIT is great. So is Carleton. So are Reed and Grinnell. These are the blinders that some parents and students are wearing and this is part of why the admissions thing is so crazy.</p>
<p>In a perfect world, ray111's idea of earlier notification in post #51 would be great. I well remember the anxiety of waiting for those early spring decisions. However, the admissions staffs are so overtaxed in the short period of Jan.-Mar. that additional staffing would be required; therefore, application fees would likely increase to cover additional labor costs. For those applying to 5-8 schools, that amount is no small potatoes when added to testing fees, test prep whether it be books or courses, etc. I agree with the discussion above regarding the common application. A limitation on how many schools a student could submit this application to would ease the burden on schools to review so many applications and would allow them to review those apps in more than the cursory amount of time that is allotted during the RD process.</p>
<p>Your're arguing a different point. Let's say Carleton is someones dream school (absolute first choice) and Carleton decides to exand its pool of international students. Unless it wants to expand (and most such schools have a fairly strong notion of what size they should be) someone has got to be bumped out. Its just math. (pro international student types who are about to attack me, remember I'm on your side)</p>
<p>C14: there's a difference between data and arbitrarily weighted one-size-fits-all pseudo-rankings. You will never find me arguing against data. You will always find me arguing against arbitrary scales and the prestige whoring it accentuates.</p>
<p>
[quote=curious14, the OP]
I totally support US colleges opening their doors to foreign students. . . . </p>
<p>I think it is pure sophistry to maintain that these students don't take someone elses place.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, it's a mathematical fact that Harvard, for example, only admits about 2,000 students a year, counting on its 80 percent yield to fill its freshman class of 1,600, so that any number of applicants above 2,000 (and Harvard's number of applicants is now ten times that) results in each applicant crowding out some other applicant. But I will hold to my statement, in this thread that I thank you for opening, that American students have nothing to lose from colleges admitting international students. (You indicate that you support that policy of American colleges admitting international students, as I do.) For any particular student, it is a better education to go to college with international classmates rather than without them, and at every echelon of selectivity, the international students who are actually admitted raise rather than lower the college's average level of academic qualifications. </p>
<p>I'll keep pressing my question in this thread: where is the showing of harm to "qualified US students" from admitting international students? There are more than enough college spaces in the United States for ALL domestic qualified students. Scholars of the issue have found that among American high school graduates, about twice as many students are college-eligible as are college-ready. </p>
<p>In other words, the United States nonsystem of higher education has plenty of surplus, misallocated capacity and is in no danger of excluding from higher education any qualified domestic student.</p>
<p>It seems to me that EA and ED are completely different animals. I think I'm coming around to opossing ED. Not just because it maybe be unfair to lower income students, but also because it may encourage some students to apply to a school early just because they think it is a good admissions strategy. I think it is a good experience for students to have a couple of acceptances and actually enjoy the experience of choosing. This is a new, and therefore not totally formed, thought. EA seems like a good vehicle for taking the stress out of the system.</p>
<p>I love the data. I'm sort of neutral on the rankings. You can always take the data and combine it with information of your own to help in the decision making process. I don't really feel like defending the rankings, so I think I'll bow out of that fight.</p>
<p>We have a wide areas of agreement but one area of disagreement. I don't think any of the posters who were arguing against admitting international students were claming that it denied US students a college education. So in saying that it doesn't deny US students an education you'e not arguing with anyone. Students have preferences, far be it from me to question the source of those preferences, so if a student prefers XYZ college and is bumped to ABC college, that he likes less, he is in some sense harmed. (Remember I am not arguing for restricting international enrollment, I favor increasing it). This is just a matter of logic for me. I've seen the "no harm done" argument on other threads and no matter what the context, it's just not logical. This is an issue of choice, values, and tradeoffs. It would appear that you and I have the same values, would make the same tradeoff, and would therefore choose to have international students present on US campuses. But I do think it is illogical to argue that no one's ox is gored in the process.</p>
<p>I think the only ox that is gored is the ox of the student who doesn't raise his own qualifications to the level necessary for his dream school. Each high school student has a choice: dream according to reality, or improve reality to match the dream. After all, it surely is a disappointment to not get into, say, Harvard if the applicant applies to Harvard, but perhaps the applicant will instead get into [insert name of great college here] that some other student dreams of getting into. Each applicant who gets rejected by a dream school can gripe about some other applicant higher in the food chain who took "his place," but that's not a constructive way to think. </p>
<p>While there is still time to set the plan in high school, find out what students in other countries are doing to be competitive applicants to [insert name of great college here] and do the same. After it's too late to redo one's high school career, adjust dreams by TENTATIVELY applying to a dream school (or two, or ten) and also applying to a great safety school. That's all. Students who are "qualified US students" have nothing to fear from this reality, because there is enough room in good-quality colleges for all of them.</p>
<p>C14: exactly...individuals can use the data to compile their own rankings aligned with their needs, preferences, biases, etc. And argue about them furiously on-line, at cocktail parties, etc.</p>
<p>1) I wish parents, teachers and students were allowed to believe they will be successful no matter which school they go to as long as they have good work habits, a positive attitude and a proper support network.</p>
<p>2) I wish the general public believed that there are more GREAT schools out there than just the top 20 highly selective ones. There are.</p>
<p>3) I wish there was more money devoted to financial aid.</p>
<p>4) I wish the general population recognized the true value of a university and the true importance that these institutions hold in the fabric of US culture and education. </p>
<p>5) I wish the general population realized that an education is a social good for the population not personal property used for show.</p>
<p>6) I wish parents loved their children and were proud of them no matter what college they went to.</p>
<p>7) I wish that there were about 1,000 less colleges in the US because a lot of them aren't offering the quality they should be. All colleges are not created equal.</p>
<p>8) I wish people realized the value of their state school and didn't reject it for more selective or prestigious schools.</p>
<p>9) I wish people cared more about what you learned (in and out of the class) rather than where you went. </p>
<p>10) I wish all students, in all places, all had equal access to educational opportunities at all levels of the system.</p>
<p>Regarding international admissions, education is one of the few remaining sustainable exports the U.S. still has, however, since the USA PAtriot Act, there are some areas of study specific to technologies that international students no longer have access to in the U.S. </p>
<p>I am in full support of MORE internationals in U.S. colleges, and in fact, high percentage of international student body was one of D's criteria in selecting colleges. I could write a very long post about the wonderful, sustaining benefits of experiences with classmates, roommates and teammates from Australian, Russia, Canada, UAE, Singapore, and other countries. This has been especially valuable and endlessly interesting as they get into discussions of politics, religion and economics post-9/11 and through a couple of U.S. presidential elections. </p>
<p>In addition, today's college graduate/tomorrow's employee will be interacting with and competing for employment with, and working with persons - peers and supervisors - from around the world and a good number of them will even work overseas at some point in their careers. It's critical for college students to develop a global perspective before entering the workforce. </p>
<p>If I could change anything at all about the admissions process, I could just edit-copy-paste Curmudgeon's thoughts. Thanks only to a terrific college counselor at a catholic high school did my daughter's situation end well - there are far, far too many parents who do not have access, do not know what to do, don't even know they're supposed to do anything at all, have no idea of FA possibilities, etc. No one is reaching out to this group and there are no resources, unless the parent seeks them out, however, most of these parents don't, because it would never even occur to them that such resources exist, and they automatically assume that college is hopelessly beyond financial reach.</p>
<p>I actually think parents often encourage kids to have a "dream school" and imo it's a mistake. The first book I read on admissions was "Winning the Heart of the College Admissions Dean". The author recommends that a student find 8 (meaning several) first choice colleges, apply to all of them, putting a lot of thought into what makes each of them a great fit, see where he/she is accepted and THEN decide where to go. What a concept! Too many kids (and parents) seem to be deciding first where they HAVE to go without knowing whether they'll be accepted, will get a workable financial aid package etc. It's their perfect right to do things that way, but it leads to incredible amounts of admissions angst if the "dream" does not become a reality. It's one of the things wrong with ED--again, jmo. A kid picks a first choice right out of the gate--what does that make the other choices? Second best, non-starters, also-rans, chopped liver. If ED doesn't come through, it can be tough to fall in love with the other "tarnished" schools.</p>
<p>I also agree with latetoschool and curm. Everyone in this country who wants to go to college should have access to the information that they need to make this happen. We're being wasteful of our natural resources by not helping every kid develop his/her potential.</p>
<p>I like the idea of discouraging the notion of a "dream school." We have found that lots of adults will not take the answer "I have no clear favorite" from our kid at face value and almost demand an answer. I'm not sure what's behind that, but I don't like it. The notion of not having a clear favorite is actually fairly realistic since so many schools are similar and the differences can easily cancel each other out, e.g. one's closer but the other is a better size, or one has a better overall academic reputation but the other is better in the expected major area of study. This is a multi-dimensional decision process and it's pretty easy for there to be no one clear winner. It's possible that the ED process fuels this since it forces the kid to decide on a number 1 at the begining of the process, if they are going to go that way.</p>
<p>Our son has been pushed by other adults to pick a favorite too, before he even knows what his options are and I do not like it, not one little bit. I'm sure it is well-meaning, but it's not helpful. At all.</p>
<p>I think I will print your posts, laminate them, and give them to some school counselors. I toally agree and think your ideas would help a out a lot of kids in their college search.</p>