<p>Actually, this guy with the bad life proves the axiom that going to a great school does not guarantee you a great life.</p>
<p>Damn, I go to Harvey Mudd, which isn’t even a top twenty (research) school. I guess I’m screwed…</p>
<p>This just goes to show that there is trouble in everyone’s life. Some face starvation, political repression, even genocide. Others have to suffer embarrassment when facing tough questions like “where did you go to school?”. That is, if the guy wasn’t just putting you on to begin with; it’s hard to believe than anyone could survive with his kind of burdens.</p>
<p>I wonder what the result would be if you looked at the overall situations of graduates of Harvard and XYZ State College 30 years after graduation, and measured levels of screwed-ness. Not just income, but intact marriage, health, stress levels, time for leisure activities, job satisfaction, etc.</p>
<p>It wouldn’t tell you much anyway, since the people at Harvard tend to be smarter and more driven. Whatever college they had gone to, they would have been more successful on average. It’s hard to do a controlled study, although Freakonomics supposedly found no difference when they compared people who got into top schools, but chose not to go.</p>
<p>cherokeejew (very interesting name), I believe you are correct, really good studies along these lines I think must be difficult for three reasons: 1) the better the controls, the more sparse the input data, especially when you are trying to set up similar populations that attend very different caliber schools (i.e., how many people with Harvard stats can you find at XYZ College?) 2) you have to come up with a reasonable way of establishing the relevant outcomes (success criteria); and 3) even if you come up with a good scheme in 2), the follow-up data needed is I think notoriously lacking. Of course, if you could prove that the prestige of your college had little bearing on “success”, many would just have to quibble with the study or the definition of “success”. But I think such studies would really be great.</p>
<p>I have a close friend whose very exceptional son was courted by and admitted to Princeton, MIT, Harvard and Stanford–he went to the West coast because it was far from home, and now, after seven years, he is wandering the streets of Palo Alto, homeless and relying on friends for a place to sleep-no money, no job, and (it sounds) like a bit mentally unbalanced-he just never could find what he was looking for. We all know kids who went to wonderful schools who are living in their parent’s basements, and kids who went to “less prestigeous” schools who are living a wonderfully blessed life. As for me, I define success and happiness as being satisfied with what one has in life rather than what one lacks. I have found that very bright, ambitious students sometimes spend a lot of time looking for “bigger and better”–there are always new worlds to conquor–and this competitive drive can sometimes strangle them and keep them from enjoying the simple life. Sometime it is good to set goals and try to achieve them, but its sad when a person is so focused on always competing to be the best, that they miss out on “true success”</p>
<p>“If you don’t go to a top twenty school (US News), your life is screwed”</p>
<p>Actually if you honestly believe this to be a true statement, it’s already too late. Even if you’re enrolled in one of those schools.</p>
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<p>Well said. :D</p>
<p>I strongly suggest reading Daniel Goldman’s book, Emotional Intelligence. In that book he thoroughly discusses and explains why some people get ahead in life while others, often very intelligent people, flounder and fail. The reason? EQ, not IQ. IQ gets you in and gets you grades, but that does NOT equal success in life. A degree from Harvard is no guarantee. Its a piece of parchment if you drop the ball on what it really takes to be successful in life. Whether its a success as a parent and spouse, or a success in business or non profit or government, everyone must learn to be be efficient, get along with others and work hard. True, some people cheat their way to the top. But they never ultimately succeed. Few people succeed as liars and cheaters…they eventually get caught. But for others, they go through life admiring themselves and being arrogant and talk too much. They dont listen. They aren’t humble. They waste time and energy.</p>
<p>Its also true that some professions are more inclined to be credentialists than others: lawyers and doctors are notorious for this egregious practice. But the best doctors and lawyers are often people who are humble, kind, hard working, get along well with others and compassionate, not braggadocio blowhards who condescend with every breath.</p>
<p>The moral to this story is that what college you go to doesnt really guarantee you anything. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates both did not finish college. Some of the most admired men and women in the military did not go to college or not to Ivy League Schools. Some who went to Ivy League schools are not very well liked…including a lot of politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle.</p>
<p>I pick my friends on their character and personality, not their college alma mater or how much money they have. In my view, obsessive credentialism is a disease…and its very distasteful. </p>
<p>If you read the magazine (as I just did) of your alma mater, they often have an obituary at the end for classmates and faculty. Often the most admired people on faculty, coaching, or students are not arrogant credentialists, and some of them might even have modest academic credentials at first…only to blossom in graduate or professional school.</p>
<p>Lets take one example: Mr. Skip Prosser who recently and tragically died of an unexpected heart attack…a massive attack that almost certainly felled him instantantly at the young of 56, was the head basketball coach at Wake Forest University in North Carolina. Mr. Prosser was not Ivy Educated. He went to the US Merchant Marine Academy, he said because it was free and “I had nothing else going on…”, then he coached high school basketball in West Virginia for years and years, then coached at Xavier University and finally at Wake Forest. His funeral was so large they had to move it to another church to handle the crowd. They had to borrow the parking lot of other churches and use buses. Coaches from around the country…in many sports, famous sports broadcasters came to say goodbye to this humble man from Pennsylvania who touched so many lives. He would often be seen eating lunch in a local lunch counter…a step above a dive…talking to complete strangers about anything…the weather, the political world, sports, that OTHER person’s family…NEVER about himself. His loss was a tremendous blow to that fine university, but moreover to mankind. He didnt give a twit about Harvard Schmarvard. He was an outstanding judge of character and he demanded MORE of his players OFF THE COURT than on the court. Not just their grades, but their character. And that my friends is what wins you “success in life.”</p>
<p>If you desire and if you succeed in being accepted at a prestigious university, then I tip my hat and congratulate you and wish you the best. But remember, that humility and compassion are worth more than any degree from any college, and honest hard work pays off more dividends than anything, including a Harvard diploma. </p>
<p>Good luck. And read Daniel Goldman’s book.</p>
<p>It is interesting that there are both pros: I-banking example and cons: like friedokra’s book to the statement that “if you don’t go to a top 20 school your life is screwed.” I would welcome more real life examples on these stances.</p>
<p>BobbyJan: Since Berkeley is a top 20 school, it’s interesting who this statement came from! There have been lots of threads on the topic of “Is it worth it to go to a prestigious university?” You should do a search on this forum for one of the recent ones. In general, I believe the consensus from most people is that it is best to find a school that fits you - your interests, your abilities, and how you see yourself socially, although it is agreed that in some fields (like I banking as you mentioned), the school does make a difference.</p>
<p>you are wrong. Berkeley ranks 21 by US News. You do the research.</p>
<p>So that one point makes all the difference?</p>
<p>Seems really trivial to me.</p>
<p>This whole thing is trivial. I mean, if you want to play it by the numbers, what percentage do the students who attend Top 20 schools make up in relation to the rest of the population? Then, how many of them do you think actually graduate in four years? That small cache of people aren’t screwing anybody.</p>
<p>The other thing is, in general, the people who are screwed are the ones who only have an associate’s degree or no degree at all. All these numbers matter to glory-happy students. It’s around 1/4 of the population over the age of twenty five have college degrees. A fourth!</p>
<p>There isn’t that much competition to begin with.</p>
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Botomline: Berkeley is a top 10 school. Berkeley’s grad programs are definitely top 5.
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<p>I agree that Berkeley is a great school and that its grad programs are some of the best in the world but I don’t think they’re undergraduate program is one of the top ten.</p>
<p>oh puhleeeze…arguing whether Berkeley is a top 20 school…number 19, 20 or 21? Absurdity! Its a great school. Top kids get in there. But is it the wonder school for every kid simply because of its ranking…as if ranking is important to anyone but elitists and neurotic credentialists?</p>
<p>I know a girl who chose Hollins College in Virginia over Chapel Hill…because of its superb program in creative writing that has produced some amazing award winning authors in RECENT years…and she wanted a small, southern, all womens’ college..not a large state university, no matter that Chapel Hill is a top 10 school in some lists.</p>
<p>Chief Justice William O Douglas went to Whitman College. Justice Lewis Powell went to Washington and Lee.</p>
<p>The world is FULL of highly successful people…and I dont just mean their net worth…who went to schools NOT in the top 20 list, then or now.</p>
<p>This is not sour grapes. If you got into a top 20 school and CHOOSE to attend, I congratulate you and wish you the very best. I hope, moreover, its a perfect fit for you.</p>
<p>There are HUNDREDS of outstanding colleges and universities in the United States that provide a superb education for tens of thousands of students every year. Finding the perfect fit for YOU is much more than whether its in the top 20.</p>
<p>If my D got into Princeton would she have gone? (She didnt apply). I dont honestly know. Its a superb school. Amazing profs and opportunities. But its highly competitive, they have these “eating houses” which can be a little bit of a social pecking order, and its a frenetic pace. I am not sure that would be a good match for her. For you? Maybe it is. If so, go for it. Then again, maybe she would have visited, fallen in love and said, “this is me!”</p>
<p>Some kids thrive in big state schools…Michigan, UCLA, Berkeley, Washington, UNC-Chapel Hill, Wisconsin, Ohio State. Some kids absolutely drown. Some kids shine and blossom and become true scholars at small private schools…not necessarily the elite schools… and others would be huddled up in the fetal position because its too small and stifling for them socially…</p>
<p>Is Williams or Amherst the perfect fit for you? Maybe. But maybe Oberlin is a better fit, or Emory, or Bucknell, or something else.</p>
<p>Maybe Columbia is a perfect fit…a smallish school in a huge urban setting…</p>
<p>You see, its about finding that school where you can flourish…and for every kid that is a different choice. For some, they need to be around nerds and geeks and hypercompetitive kids: MIT, WashU, CalTech come to mind. Others need a more relaxed atmosphere and not so frenetic or hyper competitive…a challenge without a nervous breakdown…Notre Dame…Tufts or UVa. </p>
<p>Employers want to know this: Where did you go? Did you finish? How well did you do? Do you fit into their agenda and culture? Can you do the job? That is it. Few employers have a list of the top 20 colleges and say, “If you are from a lower ranked school, please don’t apply here.” Nonsense.</p>
<p>They most certainly dont want some arrogant, condescending narcissistic person strolling the hallways and lunchroom bragging incessantly that Berkeley has moved up two spots on the USNWR rankings in the past year.</p>
<p>Pick a school if its right for you…you fit in academically (the basic “stuff” to do well), you fit in socially, culturally, and emotionally. Do they have a program that interests you? Is it the kind of environment you prefer? Warm profs who invite you to their house for dinner, or a prof you never see and who turns everything over to the graduate assistant? There is no one right answer for everyone.</p>
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<p>I don’t think that’s the case at all. The name of the university may be a slight interview edge for jobs within a few years of graduation. After that, work experience and accomplishments will far outweigh undergrad school prestige, GPA, honors, extracurriculars, etc.</p>
<p>The U.S. is fundamentally different than some Asian countries in which graduating from the right school is the only ticket to prestigious business or government jobs.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that an elite degree is a bad thing. I do think that it can help a bit with the first job or two, and occasionally open up a door later in one’s career. However, 95% of career success is dependent on the individual, not on the school. (A few fields like investment banking and consulting still do favor elite degrees.) The biggest help in most cases will be getting to the interview stage; what happens after that will depend a lot more on accomplishments and interview presence than the name on the degree.</p>
<p>Some schools have particularly strong alumni networks, and that may be a bigger factor than Top 20 ranking in “getting in the door” situations. Even in that situation, though, I wouldn’t expect much of a benefit other than an elevated chance of getting to the interview stage.</p>
<p>Another aspect of this post is how do you define “a Life”?</p>
<p>Often those pushing these statements seem to place income above all else as success. I always wonder if they do that because they lack in other areas.</p>
<p>It gets back to the old question often asked of a teacher.. what do you make?</p>
<p>answer? people. </p>
<p>If you don’t get that answer, well… maybe a top 20 is the end all for you.</p>
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<p>How many people graduate from this so called 20 top universities? Is it 100,000 or 200,000? I find it too arrogant, elitist and insulting to say that 300 millions of Americans are screwed just because they did not go to top ranked universities. :mad:</p>