If you're exhausted by the college admission process, you're not alone. So are the admissions officers

Applying to College
41

“Graduation Rate Performance” - hm, the more I read this, it sounds there’s a lot of interpretative/editorial “freedom” here. Among other things, they are basing it on “admission data” (really, what a shocker) and “school financial resources”:

The predicted rates were modeled from its students’ socioeconomic backgrounds – namely those awarded Pell Grants and who were first in their families to attend college, as well as admissions data, school financial resources, and National Universities’ math and science orientations.

Just for good measure they should multiply it by zip code and divide by area code and then round to the 3rd decimal for maximum meaningless-ness?

42

Not only did I work in financial aid, but in my last job, I was also in charge of admissions. As @MWolf noted earlier in the thread, it’s not the folks doing the actual work who are deciding what needs to happen. I worked at a very small school, and I was very much in charge of admissions and financial aid … from the standpoint of doing the actual work. There were people in very high positions above me who determined how much money I had for financial aid, how many students they expected in a given year, how much to charge for tuition, fees, dorm. They determined the marketing messages. I was tired from fighting many of those decisions before I even got to the actual students. I broke down prior admissions data for them, made them spreadsheets showing my estimates for realistic admissions numbers, showed them survey results that explained why students went elsewhere instead of our school, gave them detailed spreadsheets showing the need for more financial aid. On and on. When all was said and done, I was given marching orders that often didn’t reflect the reality I had presented.

Then there was the student side. I absolutely never saw myself as a salesperson, so I never tried to talk anyone into coming to my school … but I spent hours, nights, weekends, vacations … listening to students, answering questions, entertaining endless requests for more aid, trying to make it work for them financially if possible. And I was ghosted by students constantly, yet I was pushed by management and faculty to somehow connect with them in person to get a response. I could go on and on. It was hard, and it got harder every year. I attended meetings with area financial aid professionals, and they were all overworked and understaffed. And underpaid, for sure.

I left higher education, lost 30 pounds and have my blood pressure under control.

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43

You are incorrect. Are you a high school teacher?

There are national standards for each content area in high school that serve as the framework for state standards, which serve as the framework for district standards. Each level of standards is an elaboration on the next, not a contradiction or omission.

Implementation is irregular between states, but that is to be expected whenever you are dealing with groups of people with different backgrounds.

The federal government did not directly enforce NCLB. Enforcement was delegated to the states and districts. Where I was teaching at the time, it was done well. Colleagues who didn’t stay employed were typically the colleagues who did not get through the curriculum in a way that the students could understand. It was very difficult and in many ways aspirational, not realistic, but policy makers often lack the experience with the populations affected to be able to make practical policy.

Grades vary widely between high schools of all types. I’ve seen fabricated grades and have been directed by at least two principals to fabricate grades to meet a school-wide or district-wide objective, and I was never in a highly competitive school. Cheating is far more common there. I have friends who have taught in those places and that is what they report. I hated that part of my job and left the field over it. It affected my health negatively.

There isn’t an easy fix for any of this, and experienced school superintendents have written extensively on this topic if you’d like to learn more. It just takes a little research.

Of course, cheating happens, although far more rarely, with standardized tests as well. It’s impossible to eliminate it completely for everyone. It’s sad when the cheating happens behind the students’ backs so that they aren’t even aware of it, which is most typical. Ironically, when students initiate the cheating, these same teachers who do it for them behind their backs will often penalize them harshly and stigmatize them.

I was very careful to select a testing location for my DS this year where I knew some of the people who administered the test and I felt confident they would follow the rules. That’s true at the vast majority of the testing centers. It’s only the ‘elite’ ones where you see the type of standardized test cheating I describe, and only of a few of those.

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44

I’ve heard about systematic cheating scandals at Atlanta and a few other places, but I didn’t know cheating was as widespread at district- AND school levels as you seem to suggest. How could AOs rely on grades when there is systematic cheating on top of systemic grade inflation?

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I consider it cheating, but you might disagree. There is a grey area between grade inflation, grade deflation, and cheating. That is where high school teachers reside every day. They don’t have a choice.

I can tell you that at the schools where I taught, no one thought about AOs except one excellent college counselor at the richest school I taught at. As a classroom teacher and department head, I gave them no consideration whatsoever. My job was to educate students and support my colleagues to do the same.

46

Let’s not fool ourselves, cheating happens at all levels of education and in all types of schools, including at the Ivy League. There has always been some cheating, of course, but my impression is that it is more rampant today - probably because of the proliferation of on-line tools that make it so easy. I have a close friend who is a college professor and she has shared that she regularly catches her students cheating.

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47

I actually agree with you that what you described was cheating. I just didn’t know it was as widespread.

48

I have seen it the most in areas where the in-state flagship has a less-than-50% acceptance rate. The richest school in which I taught was in a state where the in-state flagship accepted over 90% of applicants, and there, we had rampant grade inflation only. The parents demanded it, and they were the customers. We had 4 valedictorians at that school.

49

Cheating by some students is one thing (and I agree it happens at all levels), but organized and systematic cheating by some administrators is something else entirely.

That’s certainly one major contributor to cheating by students. But I also have reasons to suspect that some students who cheat shouldn’t have been admitted in the first place.

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50

I agree that cheating by administrators (usually tied to some type of school/district wide standardized testing) is different than what students do. I’m not sure how widespread that is. I don’t feel it is a big issue where I live. As far as student cheating goes, it happens for many reasons - for some kids maybe it is because they are in over their heads, but for others it could be laziness, fear of failure or perceived need to get a “perfect” grade. Honestly, some kids just want to short cut everything.

51

@MWolf is correct about standards. National standards, to the extent that they exist, are suggestive only. There are standards that are developed by national organizations, but these are professional organizations, not the federal government, and states decide whether to adopt these standards. Similarly, AP class and testing standards are set by an organization with national reach, but it’s not an arm of the Dept. of Education. There are some tests that are used by many states, but it’s still the state and not the federal government that decides which tests to use and creates standards in line with testing. The only standards that school districts are bound to follow are at the state level. Districts across a state might differ in curriculum, but they have to be in line with state standards. There is no national enforcement of curriculum – it’s all determined by states and districts. (My background: former high school teacher, current history professor who advises and trains pre-service teachers. We talk a lot about standards.)

As far as NCLB is concerned, I was supervising student teachers at the time it was implemented, so I spent a lot of time in a lot of schools. That law was universally despised, and every teacher I talked to about it (really – every single one) said it wreaked havoc with their ability to teach, especially since my field (social studies) was not tested - a mixed blessing, because it was not under a microscope, but the new emphasis on reading and math drained resources from every other subject, including social studies. Moreover, the data-driven model of assessment that remains as the NCLB legacy has hurt education in countless ways.

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52

What would you propose if you were given universal power to enact change?

53

Oh, where to start? The problem is that so much in education can only properly be assessed holistically - and that’s the most labor-intensive and expensive way to do it. There’s nothing inherently wrong with standardized testing; it can be a useful tool. The problem is when it takes over the curriculum, and when it’s used improperly. I was teaching high school at the very beginning of the testing craze – the hours we had to spend teaching to the test took away from valuable learning opportunities. The political support for public schools in my district hinged on test scores. The disproportionate emphasis on reading and math (both important!) has leeched resources and time from social studies, science, and the arts, regardless of the fact that we know all of these other subjects strengthen reading and/or mathematical skills. The value-added evaluation approach is used in ways that don’t take into account variables beyond teachers’ control.

So should we evaluate the efficacy of teachers and schools? Of course we should. But doing that in a meaningful way requires a fine-grained and nuanced process that few states or districts have the resources to undertake, and the prevailing political will doesn’t support a qualitative approach. People want numbers, even if they don’t tell the whole story.

None of this has to do with the original thread, I realize. But you asked, so…

54

Basically that is the problem where an attempt to measure or proxy something desirable incentivizes participants to optimize the proxy measure rather than the actual desired characteristic. There often is still some correlation between the proxy measure and the actual desired characteristic, but it is confounded by “teaching to the test” or “test preparation” that may result in higher proxy measures than the actual desired characteristic for some, and lower proxy measures for those who did not do such activity.

In other contexts, it may be called “gaming the system”. In professional sports, this sometimes results in changes to the rules to prevent exploitation of loopholes in the rules when such exploitation becomes too common, is seen as “unfair” by spectators, or makes the game less entertaining generally. Other places where “gaming the system” occurs includes politics (e.g. gerrymandering) and income taxation. College financial aid is another place where parents may choose to time financial transactions before, during, or after the tax years that college financial aid calculations look at, in order to get the most favorable financial aid calculation.

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55

Quality of students varies a great deal from school to school, from district to district. Why do we use students’ performance on a test as a proxy to measure teachers’ performance? Some teachers are clearly unqualified or underqualified. Why not test the teachers directly? “Teaching to the test” wouldn’t be a problem if that were the case.

56

We do test the teachers – most if not all states require tests for certification. But test-taking ability is not a great predictor of teaching ability, and teaching ability is very difficult to assess with any standardized or objective means.

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57

The same problem could apply in this case, where those being tested could substitute test preparation for actual skill development.

58

If some teachers are unqualified or underqualified, doesn’t it suggest that the existing tests for certification are insufficient? Or do we need to raise the standards and/or test the teachers periodically?

Testing obviously shouldn’t be the only assessment, but why shouldn’t it be part of the assessment?

59

Not saying it shouldn’t be, but just like everything, it will be gamed by test preparation.

60

Depending on how such assessment tests are designed, having teachers doing some test preparation may not be a bad idea. It may help them update their knowledge and stay focused on the subject matters they teach. Keep in mind that the purpose of the tests wouldn’t be to see who scores the highest, but who would be qualified to teach.