<p>Hello, I'm a current junior thinking about colleges to apply to.</p>
<p>For a while, I've been very interested in chemistry. I interned for a chemistry professor over the summer and overall find it very interesting and something I may want to pursue as a career.</p>
<p>However, engineering is another career I might consider. Chemical engineering seems to be much more applicable than chemistry, and of course, it's a larger/better job market.</p>
<p>Knowing myself, I might rethink everything and go premed or even law school.</p>
<p>My point is, I'm not 100% on what I want to do. That being said, I don't want to apply and attend a school that's reputable/specializes in one subject only to find myself reconsidering my career prospects.</p>
<p>What top schools are either very well-rounded OR is very flexible in its course/major selection and allows the student to really explore what he wants to do? Preferably in the east coast, but not a huge requirement.</p>
<p>Below are my stats from my chance thread for reference.</p>
<p>Currently taking:
AP Physics B
AP Psychology
AP English Language
Calculus 3/Linear Algebra
AP Statistics
AP Biology
AP US History</p>
<p>Past Classes:
AP World History
AP Calculus BC
AP Chemistry
AP Environmental Sciences
AP Spanish</p>
<p>PSAT: 233</p>
<p>ACT: 36</p>
<p>SAT II:
Chemistry 800
Math II 800
Korean with Listening 790</p>
<p>Gold Presidential Volunteer Service Award (250+ hours/year)
Small Regional Awards/Scholarships
AIME Qualifier
National Chem Olympiad Qualifier</p>
<p>Science Olympiad (couple regional awards)
Academic Team (League Champions 2 years in a row)
Science Bowl (Captain)
Quiz Bowl
Tutoring Club (President and Founder)
Chess Club</p>
<p>President of a nonprofit that raises and distributes sleeping bags to homeless, have been holding annual sleeping bag drives</p>
<p>Volunteer at a School for Mentally Challenged Children where I teach math, English, etc.</p>
<p>Interned for a local professor full time last summer, worked with nanotechnology/chemistry stuff</p>
<p>For any engineering major at any school, you need to follow to course plan starting in your first semester so that you will not be delayed in graduation if you continue the engineering major (although if the school allows subject credit for your AP scores, you may get some flexibility). However, the chemistry and chemical engineering majors should be reasonably similar in your first year of college.</p>
<p>Pre-med will require supplementing a chemistry or chemical engineering major with a year of biology. Pre-law has no specific course or major requirements, though a science or engineering major is favorable if you want to do patent law.</p>
<p>At some schools, some majors, particularly engineering majors, are enrolled to capacity, so switching into them can be difficult (though switching out is not hard). At such schools, applying as an engineering major may encounter a higher admission standard.</p>
<p>Yes, I am aware of this, which is exactly why I made this thread. What schools are more flexible than others, an d which have good “trying out” periods for classes? For example I know Harvard has a great “shopping cart” system where you can try out classes the first 2 weeks without any commitments. Are there other schools that have similar systems?</p>
<p>You might look into Brown to see if it would appeal to you–there is likely the most flexibility you will find. If you don’t know, there is an open curriculum so you are in charge of almost all your classes. You don’t have to be separately accepted into the Engineering major you can switch in or out, you don’t actually declare your major until end of sophomore year, even your engineering concentration. However you would need to start some of the coursework right away. Your placement in math will get you more flexibility. A few especially strong departments include Applied Math, Computer Science, Neuroscience. There are many premeds. Humanities depts. are very strong. If you look at the engineering program handbook, it will tell you the requirements and when there are choices, like in the Biomed major, it will point out the preferred course premeds would want to take.
<a href=“Engineering | Brown University”>Engineering | Brown University;
<p>Brown also has ‘shopping period’. I don’t think it is actually official, but it is a tradition. Yale has shopping also.</p>
<p>If you have questions I can try to answer. My Calif daughter went there started doing Chem and Physics, then was a Math-CS major. Did a lot of research. Went on to grad school. I don’t know much about engineering there, just that they have expanded the program, it is one of the most popular majors, it is interdisciplinary in approach, as with most areas at Brown.</p>
<p>I was all prepared to talk about how most private universities are good with not locking you down into a major too early and letting you have some time before declaring, and then I saw you were interested in engineering. Keep in mind that it is much easier to switch out of engineering(which many people do, especially in the first couple years), than to switch into it.</p>
<p>It is probably the norm that a college will have an add/drop period of a few weeks at the beginning of the term.</p>
<p>Your main concerns are (a) ease or difficulty of changing major, and (b) making sure that you do not fall behind on engineering major course work during your frosh year or as long as you are considering majoring in engineering (this can apply to other majors with extensive frosh-level course work as well, if you are considering other such majors).</p>
<p>Since you are in California, note that at some of the UCs, engineering majors are impacted, so it is better to enter as an engineering major to have the option to switch out later, than to enter in another division, which would mean that switching into an engineering major can be very difficult. But frosh admissions selectivity tends to be higher for engineering majors at those UCs.</p>
<p>Depends on the school. You need to research whether engineering (and/or your other possible major(s)) is impacted at each school and apply accordingly.</p>
<p>Engineering is very prescriptive - courses are in a specific sequence and you must take specific classes each semester, so that there’s no time to “try out” other subjects to see if you’d rather major in them. However if you start as a non engineering major you will have trouble joining the College of Engineering since your CAS classes aren’t likely to fill the requirement for COE.</p>
<p>At a selective private school like Princeton, typically (with some exceptions) you apply to the college at large, not to a specific department or school. As long as you satisfy all the requirements of your eventual major, you can move around fairly freely. However, for some programs (engineering in particular) those requirements will be so heavy that you do need to start early if you want to graduate in 4 years. Also, some colleges have heavier distribution/core requirements than others. </p>
<p>Here is an example of what a frosh year schedule for chemical engineering looks like (may vary slightly by school; a student with AP credit might start in a more advanced course in some subjects):</p>
<p>Semester 1:
Calculus 1
General chemistry 1
H/SS breadth
H/SS breadth or engineering intro course</p>
<p>Semester 2:
Calculus 2
General chemistry 2
Physics 1
H/SS breadth or engineering intro course</p>
<p>Note that a student following this frosh year plan will be able to switch to physics, chemistry, or math without delaying graduation. Depending on the H/SS courses chosen, switching to an H/SS major can also be done without delaying graduation. But a student who does not start with something reasonably similar (or more advanced courses based on AP credit) is more likely to delay graduation if switching into chemical engineering, although a student who does follow such a plan as a non-engineering frosh should be able switch to chemical engineering without delaying graduation, assuming no administrative barriers or impaction constraints.</p>
<p>The administrative barriers or impaction constraints on changing major at some schools are a different consideration entirely. These need to be researched for each school before applying (since schools with administrative barriers or impaction may require applying to the major).</p>
<p>* What top schools are either very well-rounded OR is very flexible in its course/major selection and allows the student to really explore what he wants to do? Preferably in the east coast, but not a huge requirement.*</p>
<p>Pretty much all of them. Most top schools have strengths in nearly all of their departments (and yes, I know there are some differences within that group of top colleges, but I don’t think anyone would say that any one of - say - Harvard or Johns Hopkins or Michigan’s departments are bad or low-ranked when thought of more broadly/in comparison to more average places). Almost all colleges have a “shopping” period - it’s called add/drop. Usually you can sign up for any class within the first 2-3 weeks of school, and drop it without penalty, as well as add new classes without penalty (as long as they aren’t full). At my current university many of the undergrads will add more classes than they know they can take and then go sit in on the first class, and then decide what they want to drop.</p>
<p>Most colleges also have a “drop deadline” - so if you discover by mid-October that you have one too many classes to study effectively or that you hate poli sci with a passion, you can drop the class without a grade penalty or a W (although you may still have to pay for the class, and make sure you don’t drop below full-time.)</p>
<p>As was already pointed out, though, all bets are off for engineering. Engineering at any school is not going to be very flexible if you want to graduate in 4 years - since engineering courses (everywhere) have a set sequence that begins freshman year, even the most flexible of schools will not offer you a lot of options or time when it comes to deciding. Pre-med is, too - the number and sequence of courses is such that it’s really best to begin in your freshman year. (There are no particular required courses for pre-law; some colleges have a recommended sequence.)</p>
<p>Also note, though, that you don’t have to make all of your decisions up front if you are willing to spend a little extra time preparing for other things. Plenty of people decide in their junior or senior year that they want to be doctors, for example, and then do a pre-med postbaccalaureate program to take the prerequisites. I had some friends who got a master’s degree before going to med and law school, and I have a close friend who got a master’s and then worked for 5 years before planning med school. You can also major in chemistry and get a master’s in chemical engineering later.</p>
<p>If you’re looking for freedom, you can forget Uchicago and COLUMBIA (columbia has one of the strictest cores in the country). Chicago also doesn’t have engineering. Someone above mentioned Brown, which truly gives you free reign. Swarthmore is pretty open as well, and one of the few LACs with a real engineering department. Johns Hopkins and University of Rochester are also both strong in engineering, and both have similar freedom of curriculum (a writing requirement and distribution requirements where you choose your courses).</p>
<p>Note that drop deadlines are often after the add deadlines, and often enough into the term that adding a course would mean being very far behind in the newly added course. This means that if you drop this late, you may have an underload (even if you have the minimum load for “full time” status, which is usually about one course fewer than the normal course load), which may require you to take an overload in a subsequent term to make up the credits or requirements to graduate on time. If “shopping” for courses, it is best to attend all of the courses you may want to take from the start, and make your decision before the add deadline, or keep an overload past the add deadline to drop one by the later drop deadline.</p>
<p>^What UCBalumnus said, which is why I said you need to make sure you don’t drop below full-time. That’s why the “shopping” period is usually the first 2-3 weeks before the add deadline - I wouldn’t recommend a student to take an overload and then drop before the W deadline, not the least because you would also have to pay for at least part of that class.</p>
<p>Also, I want to address this:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>OP asked what universities were either “very well-rounded” OR “very flexible in its course/major selection and allows the student to really explore what he wants to do.” Columbia, even with the Core, is both of those things. The Core is nothing if not well-rounded, first of all. Second of all, when looked at on its face, Columbia’s Core isn’t that much more onerous than the divisional and gen ed requirements at most other schools. For example, I compared the Core to my own undergrad college’s gen ed and divisional requirements and they’re only different by about two classes. It’s just that Columbia gives you a little less choice with some of them (like Lit Hum and CC), but the point is that every Columbian - going back to the early 20th century - has a unified Core experience.</p>
<p>Anyway, my third point is that the Core by no means interferes with a student’s flexibility in selecting a major. Much like college students anywhere else, Columbia College students try on different majors - often well into their sophomore year - and switch majors when they want.</p>
<p>Wow, these are very helpful! Thank you for the replies.
Another question, I’ve heard LACs are often flexible due to their small sizes, and they are an attractive option, but I’ve heard they often lack research opportunities presented by national universities like Stanford or Harvard. Is this true, and to what extent? </p>
<p>Also slightly off topic, but what would you say my chances are at schools like Princeton, Harvard, and Brown? Obviously there’s really no point in contemplating college pros/cons if I can’t get into them.</p>
<p>Columbia may be less flexible than some other super-selective schools, due to the administrative barrier for transferring between SEAS and College (relevant if you are interested in both engineering and non-engineering majors). You may want to investigate how much of a barrier it actually is in practice (ask on the Columbia forum). The Columbia Core is less of an issue, as there is overlap for SEAS and College in terms of courses that can apply to both.</p>
<p>A relatively small percentage of LACs offer engineering (and some that do just have a general engineering major which may or may not have your desired subarea as an option within it), so if that is a strong interest, choose carefully.</p>
<p>Those schools are all reaches for everyone, but you have a shot. Also it depends what LAC you go to. Often the top LACs (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, etc) have top-notch professors that conduct research. Of course breadth and depth of research and available facilities would not be as great as they would be at say Stanford, but the strong education and immense focus on undergrads probably makes up for it. If you work well in large environments though and are really interested in research, I would choose a university over a LAC</p>
<p>Stanford and Harvard (or Penn State and Michigan) are large national research universities. They attract millions of dollars in federal grants as well as contracts with private organizations; they attract top-notch researchers who come to those organizations specifically to do research. They can afford fancy equipment in their research labs as well as much larger-scale, game-changing research than LACs. For that reason, most important scientific studies come out of them. There are far more research labs there; they are bigger; the professors are usually more experienced, and sometimes the experience undergrads can get is more formalized. These are the upsides.</p>
<p>The downside (and this will vary by school, department, and lab) is that professors are largely managers in these groups. They will employ postdoctoral research scholars and graduate students in addition to undergraduate RAs. Undergrad RAs may work more closely with these grad students and postdocs than with the professor him/herself, and they may also do more routine research tasks like literature reviews/searches, running participants or lower-level parts of experiments, cleaning lab equipment, tending to the rats, etc. That’s not to say that they don’t also sometimes do independent presentations and get their names on publications - they sometimes do! It just depends.</p>
<p>Research universities also have more resources. Bigger libraries, more off-curriculum offerings. For example, I was sometimes frustrated at my tiny LAC’s library resources; there were sometimes articles I wanted that I couldn’t get or books they didn’t have. I NEVER have that problem at Columbia - even if we don’t have it, one of the other Ivy Leagues does, and I can get it in 2 days. One thing we also have here that my LAC definitely did not have is several stats consulting services. I actually do this - for FREE, I will sit down with an undergraduate doing her thesis and help her puzzle through her stats. (The university pays me.) Also, sometimes having grad students nearby is a plus, as you can pick their brains about being a grad student and they will help you put your app together. I frequently talk with my lab’s RAs about applying to grad school, and once a year we put together a little seminar for our lab’s RAs about getting in (just because we like to :D)</p>
<p>LACs, of course, are primarily teaching institutions: their professors are hired to teach undergrads, and professors who are successful about getting those positions are passionate about working with undergrads. But LACs understand “teaching undergraduates” more broadly than just classwork. I’m an advanced PhD student in a lab social science field, and every single job ad I’ve seen for LAC professors has emphasized the desire for a candidate who has a passion/desire to mentor undergraduates in research and supervise undergraduate senior theses. NONE of the top R1 applications say that (although they do talk about supervising grad students).</p>
<p>Furthermore, all of the professors at the top LACs (Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, Pomona, etc.) are expected to do research. At many of these institutions, science professors will have done a 2-year postdoc before they come to the school, and many of them have teaching loads that are kind of like an R1’s teaching load (2 classes per semester, or sometimes 3 in the fall and 2 in the spring). The idea is that they have time free to do research.</p>
<p>The difference is that one of the primary goals of their research is to include and involve undergraduates. There are usually no (or, in the case of places like Bryn Mawr, very few) grad students competing for their time, and no postdoctoral scholars. They are also expecting to spend extra time teaching you how to do research in their area and developing your presentation and writing skills. And professors at top LACs do often win outside research grants; they simply aren’t as big as the the ones at places like Harvard and Michigan. As one LAC professor put it to me, the quality of their research is the same, they just can’t produce the same quantity that their colleagues at the big research schools can.</p>
<p>I must admit that I am totally biased because I went to an LAC and got great research experience (good enough to get me into Columbia!) and currently work at an LAC with students doing research. But I think students can get an excellent research experience at either one of these types of colleges - it just depends on the kind of experience they WANT. If you want to be in a cutting edge lab that’s doing the newest and best research, and/or you want to be in a big lab that has lots of different kinds of scientists, then a top research university is clearly the place for that. Also, if you have a more “obscure” interest like neuroscience or astrophysics or nuclear engineering, you’re unlikely to find that at a small LAC. But if you want close relationships with professors and a lot of personal attention and invested time in the quality of your work, you’re far more likely to get that at an LAC.</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>Also remember that going to one or the other doesn’t limit you totally. I went to an LAC in a city with a lot of national universities, and many of my classmates did research at those national universities while still attending my LAC. Also, there are TONS of summer research programs at national universities for undergraduates interested in a variety of fields. Conversely, undergrads at national universities that are nearby LACs can take classes there (like Penn -> Swarthmore or Haverford or Columbia -> Barnard).</p>
<p>Since you live in California, you should explore Harvey Mudd and Pomona in addition to USC, UCLA, UCB, and Stanford.</p>
<p>An alternative could be to study CS which is less strict than engineering but still STEM within the liberal arts so you could take Chemistry alongside it and have a career for sure afterwards.</p>
<p>Your chances would be, like other top students’, roughly 1 in 20 or, since you’re low income and have awesome ECs, perhaps 1:10 (which is likely to be triple the RD rate this year). So, not out of the realm of possibilities. Definitely apply.</p>
<p>Are you in Questbridge? If not, you’d be a perfect candidate, do apply.</p>