<p>hoedown, I'm curious what "aid policies" you are referring to. Since you say that you don't feel an ability to keep up with academic intensity is the problem I'm assuming you mean financial aid? What policy is in place that you feel might be limiting the number of URM's graduating?</p>
<p>According to the NCAA, the black grad rate at Cal is 70%. </p>
<p>zuzu: As for aid policies, I was referring to the fact that U-M gaps nonresidents. Up until recently, we also had a gift aid max that means that residents were sure to have loans. That's particularly problematic for students in lower income groups, which at Michigan includes a higher percentage of URMs.</p>
<p>To clarify, I didn't say trouble with academics was no problem--just that it is suspect to claim that is the reason behind all URM transfer, stop-out, and drop-out.</p>
<p>hoedown, thank you for explaining the aid policy. It told me something I've been curious about. I'm not an URM, but have been following the thread for purposes of sociological interest. That comment however peaked my interests. I'm very low income (0 EFC) and aid policy is my #1 concern about U of M. I've heard that many schools drop aid after the first year you attend. I was curious if that might be a reason that URM's were leaving before finishing, or if gift aid was low, etc. So you response led me to look into it further and see if I'm likely to get "stuck" unable to pay a year after I get there.</p>
<p>And what's the URM graduate rate at the other peers I mentioned: Cornell, Northwestern, Penn and UVa? I bet it is over 80%. Should Michigan settle for being at the bottom of the heap? Yes, Michigan fails some of its students on the financial side and we need to address that issue too. However, many URMs drop out because they are in over their head.</p>
<p>What do you mean, you "bet?" LOL You said it was well over 80%--I thought you were referring to some actual report you had in front of you, however off it may have been. If it seems like I'm nitpicking, I do so because I think it's important. A lot of students look to you as something of an authority on U-M and higher ed issues, and this is compounded by your moderator status. You usually are full of factual information, so people expect your statements to be true. I feel that you have an obligation--maybe more so than the average poster--to make sure that you separate your guesses from actual fact. </p>
<p>Cornell and Northwestern are 83%. That is over 80% but whether or not that's "well over" I don't know. UVa is 87%. Penn is similarly high at 89% I think the "settling for being bottom of the heap" is not what anyone is proposing. I am simply challenging the assertion that all our peers have grad rates over 80%, and that the graduation gap is due to URMs being unable to cut it.</p>
<p>At every one of these places, there is a gap. For example, at UVA the white rate is 93%. There is something at work here. I also think it is notable that the gap at UCB has remained even after AA was ended. How, then, does one blame the gap on AA?</p>
<p>zuzu, in my experience U-M does not do a "bait and switch." Your aid should be fairly consistent if your need/EFc is consistent.</p>
<p>If you are a Michigan resident, you will benefit from the M-PACT program. It has gotten almost no press for this, but it is similar to the programs at UVa and UNC whereby the lowest-income students have their loans greatly reduced or even eliminated.</p>
<p>
[quote]
how can you argue that discrimination is negligible for most people if you are not those people? How can you account for the experiences of others? Are you omniscient?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm Indian-American. Does that mean that everyone thinks that I am a terrorist? Of course it happens. But is it affecting me in general? Yes it has to be, according to you guys.</p>
<p>And since I won't get a job because I am technically an enemy of the state, Umich should compensate me accordingly.</p>
<p>See how that makes no sense whatsoever?</p>
<p>I'll get back to your longer post in a bit.</p>
<p>look the second anyone posts or begins to discuss anything related to affirmative action we just get a bunch of name calling. now i posted and said that i was not racist. i then am told that i am a racist white boy. well you know what i didnt post was the fact that i have seen people come from the bottom to the top in my family without the help of affirmative action.
NOT ONLY BLACK PEOPLE ARE POOR AND UNDERPRIVILEDGED.
my grandfather went from the bottom and ended up on top. he started out in a very poor community and his mother died when he was 12. his dad was an officer at the naval academy and the family was very poor. my grandfather worked his way up and got into Yale with no help of affirmative action. he graduated first in his class above everyone and else and went on to be the CEO of Philidelphia Electric Company. he retired at the age of 56 and still to this day is an opponent of affirmative action. he worked his way up with no handouts. theres a story of a white person coming from the bottom to the top.</p>
<p>since when were all black people poor and live in the ghetto.
since when were all white people rich and live in mansions.</p>
<p>im not a racist. i deserve an equal chance to get into michigan just like everyone else.</p>
<p>Nice reply wasabi. My grandparents came to this country with nothing. My grandpa went to the university of michigan, got a degree in pharmacy, worked for many years, got a degree in pathology, and worked for the hospital. He worked his way up without the help of affirmative action. He lives comfortably, to say the least.</p>
<p>On my other side of the family, my grandpa worked his way up to become mayor of his town in India, owning a few businesses. My dad came here with the help of my grandpa and got a masters in engineering -- again without the help of affirmative action.</p>
<p>All the while, you tell me that blacks in the ghetto are more at a disadvantage? When you are an immigrants that barely speaks the language and has nothing, that is truly disadvantage.</p>
<p>God dammit people, when will you realize that you are not the only ones affected by misfortune?</p>
<p>Jenny, don't go to Duke, you should apply for a job at Comedy Central.</p>
<p>Hahahahahaha. Has jenny replied to any of this verbal barrage?</p>
<p>she's too busy crying because she's not going to Michigan</p>
<p>Hoedown, there is a gap between URM and non-URM graduation rates at most universities. That is perfectly true. But the gap between 93% and 87% or between 92% and 83# isn't that bad. The gap between 87% and 66% is attrocious. And I have no issues with AA. I have issues with the way Michigan approaches AA. There has got to be a better way to attract the right sort of diversity.</p>
<p>I'm chinese. As in not covered under AA. And I'm glad for that because I can say to myself and to everyone else that I got into U of M because I am a good student, because I worked hard and because I <em>earned</em> it. I would hate to get into a school just because of my race. It's demeaning to me. It would be like saying, oh, you're really not good enough, but you are a minority so, what the heck, we'l let you in. Why? Oh because we've done horrible things to you in the past so now we're going to give you a free ride.</p>
<p>I have a hispanic friend who got into Michigan. She's brilliant. Totally deserved to get in. A girl she knew at her high school didn't get in. She was white. Do you know what that girl said to my friend? "Oh you only got in because you're hispanic."</p>
<p>How hurtful is that? By having AA that is essentially what you're allowing to happen. I think anyone let into a top school because of AA would be very hurt by a comment similar to that one. How would that make you feel? After all that hard work, someone points out to you that you only got in because of the color of your skin, not because of the content of your character. And how would you defend against that? You can't because you know that it was a factor, and under AA it's a huge factor, of getting into U of M. How can you prove that it wasn't your race that got you in? You can't. </p>
<p>I don't know. If I were put in that situation I would feel frustrated and upset that in the end, it was my race that set me apart and not what I had accomplished as a person. </p>
<p>And isn't that what discrimination is? Setting people apart because of their race?</p>
<p>See...with that example I wonder if the white girl who asks that question has racial resentment that is created by racial preference, or if that resentment is already in place. I happen to think its a mixture of the two, but regardless, the use of preferences certainly exacerbates that problem.</p>
<p>Your Hispanic friend has nothing to be sorry about. Her success is her success, whether it is fueled entirely by "merit" or by the combination of many factors that everyone else's is. If what it took to succeed in the world was a combination of high GPA and high SAT scores, then George W would not be president, would he? A brilliant student is no less brilliant because she is a URM, no matter what some jealous rival says. And a less brilliant but deserving student who gets a leg up and then succeeds is no less successful for the extra help. There are lots of ways to get extra help, sometimes it is Daddy calling his fellow executive who is on the Board of Regents and making sure little girl gets a "fair review" and sometimes it is affirmative action. So long as the person who is given the help takes the ball and runs with it, they have, in my opinion, nothing to feel bad about.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hoedown, there is a gap between URM and non-URM graduation rates at most universities. That is perfectly true. But the gap between 93% and 87% or between 92% and 83# isn't that bad. The gap between 87% and 66% is attrocious. And I have no issues with AA. I have issues with the way Michigan approaches AA. There has got to be a better way to attract the right sort of diversity.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We probably have some agreement on the need to improve the way AA is carried out at Michigan. </p>
<p>But blaming AA for low graduation rates is simply not sound.</p>
<p>I find the "my grandparent came to this country with nothing" stories funny. Mostly because these grandparents are white, which puts them at more of an advantage than any Affirmative Action program could. Because honestly, whom are people less likely to trust, feel comfortable with, a poor black man or a poor white man? Which one will find it easiest to assimilate? Which of those two people or more likely to be approached and treated as a person, an equal rather than a race? Let me remind you that if you have to try to treat minorities equally you're not doing it right. So no, poverty isn't the problem, the problem is the random checks from the police, the assumptions of criminal intent, and the rest of the stereotypes that shadow minorities. Have you ever had to tell someone, "It's okay, I'm here to help you," before acting so that they won't assume you're there to take advantage of a bad situation? If you're Caucasian or Oriental, your answer is probably, no.</p>
<p>Speak of Orientals, your stories-while very, very nice and even inspiring-don't say much about the minority experience. Your stereotypes aren't nearly as damaging: super studious, ambitious, overly cautious drivers. Allow me to point out the MODEL part of "model minority". Believe it or not, you have many things working in your favor despite being a minority. I would much rather someone assumes me to best studious and overly careful rather than lazy and prone to rash action.</p>
<p>When minorities don't have to face stereotypes we won't need Affirmative Action, until then something like it needs to be in place. It doesn't necessarily have to be AA as we know it, but it must be something.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Which of those two people or more likely to be approached and treated as a person, an equal rather than a race?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So obviously you don't think they should be treated as a race. Affirmative action treats them as a race. Problems with discrimination are increased when programs bring attention to race.</p>
<p>And also, when comparing a black man and a white man, in general, it is statistically in favor of the public's safety to search the black man first. Statistically, one is more likely to find a criminal.
EDIT: This is assuming that the statistics aren't inflated because of police discrimination in the first place. This entire secondary statement is just a loose concept.</p>
<p>You are pretty much dead wrong there.</p>
<p>I'm Indian, my grandparents were Indian. You are describing stereotypes that hardly existed back when they came over here.</p>
<p>As far as the girl that is Hispanic goes, I totally agree that AA undermines her reputation, which is everything in this day and age.</p>
<p>I think the debate ultimately comes down to who benefits. For example, if I were compared to another white male with the exact same stats when applying for a job, sure the company would pick me, the brown dude. Of course I would fulfill some random quota the company must meet.</p>
<p>But that is dead wrong, and any naysayers are just idiots. I'm sorry, but it is plainly the case. Take MLK's words to heart, and strive for true equality without programs that just generate more racism. It's bad enough as it is.</p>