Importance of Graduation Rates

Parents Forum
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<p>Curmudgeon:</p>

<p>This is going to sound very strange coming from me, but I think that Davidson and Swarthmore are fundamentally very similar schools. They just exist in two very different cultural contexts.</p>

<p>The characteristics that they share, IMO, are a very strong emphasis on academics, an unusually strong sense of community, and an institutional social conscience.</p>

<p>The funny thing is that each school's students would probably not fit very well if they swapped places despite the fact that the core academic experience is quite similar.</p>

<p>Cangel and I have had this discussion. Davidson is a bit of an odd-duck choice for southern students. You really don't go there unless you are specifically looking for a small, tight-knit academically-focused college experience. It's not exactly the University of Alabama.</p>

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<p>Not Davidson. Definitely not Davidson. LOL. I was musing about another well-respected southern school. Well respected by southerner's anyway. I think Davidson's freshman retention is very very high (96%) as is it's grad rate of 89% or so. (03 numbers, too lazy to look it up online).</p>

<p>As an example, and NOT the school I was thinking of -look at these numbers for Randolph-Macon College. 76% freshman retention rate. 73% actual grad rate.(USNWR-2005 Edition) Say what? Something may be going on there that needs investigating before sending your kid , huh? What does it mean? hellifiknow.</p>

<p>According to that edition the worst freshman retention rates to sophomore year among national LAC top fifty were Wabash (all guys maybe too many guys?), Sewanee (Whoa. Wearing ties to class?), and Bard ( I don't know what to guess.).Wabash is Wabash and shouldn't be compared to the others on this , I don't think anyway. But while Bard loses 19% more before graduation, Sewanee loses 3% more. Huh? Again, I don't know what it means but those are significantly weird results for two schools right next to each other in the rankings.</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon does know his Southern LAC's. Although the numbers I have are from the Education Trust website, which must include transfers otherwise the numbers are mathematically impossible (e.g. Randolph-Macon has a 77% retention rate and an 87% 6-year graduation rate). </p>

<p>Anyway, I think all of this has been helpful. Money does appear to be a factor. Some of the schools also have a reputation for admitting a large number of first-generation students. I agree that looking at 4-year vs. 6-year rates is important, as is the retention rate. To put the cards on the table and stop speaking in hypotheticals, I thought I might as well list out the schools in question. With a few exceptions, these are all within a fairly narrow band of Size/SAT/GPA/Acceptance Rate data:</p>

<p>Lenoir-Rhyne (4-year graduation rate of 39%, Freshman retention rate of 75%, Pell Grant recipient rate of 27%)
Lynchburg (46%, 68%, 21%)
Emory and Henry (47%, 72%, 29%)
Guilford (50%, 71%, 25%)
Roanoke (51%, 79%, 20%)
Hampden-Sydney (53%, 80%, 11%)
Bridgewater (54%, 76%, 22%)
Presbyterian (61%, 84%, 12%)
Randolph-Macon (78%, 77%, 13%)</p>

<p>To be fair, these are not schools that compete with Furman, Richmond, Sewanee, Centre, Rhodes, etc., so I don't expect the graduation rates to be equivalent. And given the basic profile of CC kids they aren't schools that are talked about frequently on this board. But I think they do probably compete amongst themselves, which makes the wide discrepancy in rates interesting.</p>

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<p>How does one find out the reason behind the graduation rate? For example, my S is interested in a school with a 4 year grad rate of 30%. The retention rate is 86%. This is a state school. How does one research the reason behind the number, or who does one contact to find out the reasons?</p>

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<p>"Anyway, I think all of this has been helpful. Money does appear to be a factor. Some of the schools also have a reputation for admitting a large number of first-generation students."</p>

<p>This will be a little bit more complicated than just looking at Pell Grant rates, though Pell data will lead you in the right direction. Remember, Pell incomes are $40k or below. But there are lots of folks (in fact, the plurality of the U.S. population!) between $40-$60k - this is in fact where the median family income lies. An bad illness, a divorce, an accident, a drug problem, etc. could quickly send a family into a massive downward spiral, and would require all the resources of the family (often including the members in college) to recover.</p>

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<p>Mini, I used the Pell Grant number as a very rough tool. Unless you can point me in the right direction, I really don't know how I could try to track down a more detailed "financial profile" of the admittees of a large list of schools. </p>

<p>nemom -- I think the thing to do, and what I plan to do, is to just keep asking (not just one adcom, but several people) the college what's up with the grad rate. And, frankly, view their answers with skepticism if they don't ring true. Maybe it's finances, maybe it's lack of support, maybe it's a large greek/party atmosphere that students can't handle.</p>

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<p>"Mini, I used the Pell Grant number as a very rough tool. Unless you can point me in the right direction, I really don't know how I could try to track down a more detailed "financial profile" of the admittees of a large list of schools."</p>

<p>No one will publish such data (for almost obvious reasons.) But if you want to find the baseline data for what it would look like based on income (although they are likely a huge outperformer), look to Berea, where ALL the students are relatively to very poor, 39% graduate in 4 years, and 62% in 6, despite the fact that it is tuition-free.</p>

<p>Anyhow, I think you get the general gist.</p>

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<p>On another thread emeraldkity wrote:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I know I have heard from several students who were given bait and switch finaid packages. A great package freshman year, and then in subsequent years, a package which necessitated switching schools or going into much more debt than was wise.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I have to wonder if this practice may be a factor in low freshman retention and graduation rates at some schools. </p>

<p>It would be good if colleges which engage in this practice were forced to be upfront and honest about it, so students and their parents could make an informed decision upfront.</p>

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<p>Wisteria, I definitely think that happens. I always wondered how many students kept those merit scholarships after freshman year. It is tough to adjust to college and keep a high enough gpa to keep the scholarship. I guess at schools where retention and graduation rates are very good, students must be keeping them. Not all parents are willing, or can afford to shell out many thousands more each semester if their child lost a merit scholarship.</p>

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<p>lderochi, that is the problem I have tried to reach the appropriate ppl without success. I tried twice. I will definitely try again. I found some information on the school's website under "institutional research". There is lots of data, but I would like the reasons behind the numbers, which is where the problem lies.</p>

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<p>As to wisteria's point, I believe that you can search for the average amount of merit aid granted to incoming freshman receiving merit awards , as contrasted with the average amount of merit aid granted to upperclassmen receiving merit awards. If there is a large discrepancy at any school ,either in % of class receiving aid or amount of aid, I haven't found it yet at the schools my D is interested in. Even at the schools that are usually mentioned as being suspect in this regard.</p>

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<p>I'm pretty sure I know which Southern LAC that Curmudgeon have discussed - I'm a little surprised that the Freshman retention rate is that low.
How about this possibility, because I can see this scenario coming up with my 9th grade son. He is a classic underachiever with a love of history, books that are on topics of interest to him, and not much else (except girls). This particular LAC might be a good fit for him, because I think he is going to be a definite late bloomer, and could use the nurturing environment, plus the opportunity to take small challenging classes, BUT, because he is somewhat immature, I think it is equally likely that he could get up to that school (or up to the University, as we call it, you know the one with the elephants) and just forget to go to class, etc, etc. The reality in the South is, if your child doesn't want to go 1000 miles away, there are going to be frats, except for a few select exceptions, so you have to deal with it. Multiply my son by about 15 young men in the freshman class, and you may have part of the problem.
Another issue with the Southern LACs that may or may not make them more susceptible to freshman "erosion" than the Northern schools, is that LACs have a very, very small clientele in the South (that's why there is only one Davidson). A number of my fellow parents would never consider such a school for their child, or would insist on some business courses, or tolerate anything less than excellent grades at "those prices" - a parent who deep down feels like a school is a poor bargain, will exert a lot of pressure for a change in schools.</p>

<p>Yes, I agree with Idad, Davidson and Swarthmore have similar emphasis on exacting academic work, but different political atmospheres. As I posted on the Davidson forum - there is no other school exactly like it in the South. W&L is often compared to it, but in my experience, the kids who consider Davidson are a just a hair or two higher up in the class with a bit better stats.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
As to wisteria's point, I believe that you can search for the average amount of merit aid granted to incoming freshman receiving merit awards , as contrasted with the average amount of merit aid granted to upperclassmen receiving merit awards. If there is a large discrepancy at any school ,either in % of class receiving aid or amount of aid, I haven't found it yet at the schools my D is interested in. Even at the schools that are usually mentioned as being suspect in this regard.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Figures on the percentage of returning upperclasmen receiving merit aid and the amounts granted to those returning students doesn't tell us how much merit aid was offered to the students who did not return for their sophomore year.</p>

<p>In schools that have a low freshman retention rate, one wonders if many of those "lost freshmen" may be those for whom it was too hard to meet the college's criteria for keeping the merit aid.</p>

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<p>Are the schools with the low grad rates primarily commuter schools? Commuter schools also often have grad rates much lower than residential schools. Probably due to the money related issues that other have mentioned, plus the type of student they often attract in the first place --> perhaps older, working, and taking the slow route to a degree.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
In schools that have a low freshman retention rate, one wonders if many of those "lost freshmen" may be those for whom it was too hard to meet the college's criteria for keeping the merit aid.

[/quote]
Ergo, it is critical when evaluating any merit offer to check whether it is "renewable" each year and on what basis. This was discussed on the very long "schools known for good merit aid" thread; ie "good" is not just amount but reliability over four years. Some schools seem to require you apply "fresh" each year (highly unreliable?). Some have required GPA's in the 3.5 range (very restricitve imho even for a stellar hs student). Some, like Tulane where my DS is ("sort of", Katrina-;) ), require a 2.7: very doable, allows for tough engineering or similar schedule, allows for freshman "adjustment", etc.</p>

<p>Back to the regularly scheduled topic.</p>

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<p>University of Chicago has a very low retention rate for that caliber of school. When I was there, a number of middle class kids left because the parents were unwilling to continue paying high tuition, and were not satisfied with the grades being earned. It was unfortunate. Only one student that I knew made the decision herself- that she was homesick, not thrilled with the school, and needed a better GPA as a premed. A few students also entered with the plan of transferring. They had heard of other schools of greater interest too late to apply. Quite a few dropped out for a year or two, and then returned. Usually, they needed the year to work and save money themselves, and to give the parents a chance to save also. A few had maturity and adjustment problems, but with most, it was financial.</p>

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<p>UC doesn't look low to me. 95%, which is only slightly lower than HYPSM. I think anything over 80% is fine.</p>

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<p>I just wanted to post with info on Randolph-Macon College. After I had already sent in my early decision application to another school, a rep from R-MC had come to my high school to talk to us. I went (better than physics class :/), and one of the things he addressed was the grad and retention rate.</p>

<p>In terms of the freshman retention rate, he said that one of the biggest reasons the freshmen don't return is that they just didn't expect the work to be so hard. I've heard from a couple different people that it's one of those schools that's easy to get into but hard to stay in. There's also a number of commuter students (as someone else had mentioned earlier).</p>

<p>I ended up getting into my ED school, but I was going to look at R-MC if I had been deffered or rejected. With just this school as an example, I don't think the rates are that important. They seem (key word) to give a lot of aid here and are very helpful. </p>

<p>Sorry that was so long, but I just wanted to add that since I heard it straight from a school rep!</p>

<p>And just to clarify, this was a couple of years ago. :)</p>

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<p>Well, I'm probing the depths of the retention rate universe: My youngest attends Christopher Newport University, a small state school in Newport News, VA. Freshman retention rate, 64%. 4-year graduation rate, 13% (!). 6-year rate 37%. Actually, he seems to be doing well, both academically and otherwise. His professors know him by name (all of them!), and he enjoys his major (psychology). He may add major in history, and he has a lot of activities. </p>

<p>Why are these rates so low? CNU has an interesting history, from William and Mary adjunct to commuter school to rapidly emerging state LAC. SATs are up 200 points in the past seven years. </p>

<p>But, my "advance team" tells the real story. Lots of kids arrive thinking they really don't need to go to class, and they don't need to study. And, the faculty is absolutely merciless when it comes to this attitude: average GPA for 4 years is 2.4. Average freshman GPA is around 2.1. Academic probation starts at 2.0, so you do the math: lots of kids just don't adjust to college life, and pay the price. Freedom is a two-edged sword. </p>

<p>I don't get the impression, at CNU, that financial aid is the primary factor in the dropout rate--it's a state school and lots of kids get some help. </p>

<p>When you move out of the HPYS stratosphere and fly close to the ground, college life is very different: more varied, more challenging, and more like real life and real people. I think my son is getting an education beyond the classroom as well.</p>

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<p>My D decided to go to a UC closer to home and I now have a new take on graduation rates. At freshman registration she was closed out of every prerequisite for her two anticipated majors. She has since gotten into one class after a spot opened up but was told that she might have to wait until the second quarter of her sophomore year to get into the other introductory classes that are prerequisites for her majors. Students who are lucky enough to get into these classes in their sophmore year and then change their mind about their major..can be very stuck trying to get all the requirements completed in four years.
Incidentally, D is in the honors program and their staff has told her to just get rid of electives until a spot opens. A lot of her electives where covered with AP classes already. </p>

<p>For schools like this the graduation rate is impacted by overcrowding. When a student doesn't graduate in four years the financial problems can escalate.</p>