In Elite N.Y. Schools, a Dip in Blacks and Hispanics

<p>could the problem be cultural? There has been many media reports about African American teens feeling pressured not to do well academically. These kids are pressured not "act white" by getting good grades. (How sad!!!)</p>

<p>In California, sometimes immigrant Hispanic parents do not want their child to achieve too much because they are afraid that their successful child will turn his/her back on them. Teachers and principals report that they often have to beg immigrant Hispanic parents to allow their child to pursue a college education -- even when a "free ride" is offered!!! </p>

<p>If these scenarios are correct, then another tactic must be used.</p>

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<p>Wonder who came up with this bright idea?!!</p>

<p>I'm not sure the answer is cultural. Stuy, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech have experienced dramatic reductions in the percentages of African-American and Latino kids in just the last 5+ years. "Cultural" change usually happens over a longer time horizon. Just four years ago, more than 8% of students at Bronx Science, for example, were African-American. Now the percentage is barely half that. One thing is certain: if the declines continue they become self-fulfilling, as qualified black and Latino students do not apply to the specialized high schools because no one they know (or that looks like them) goes there. Perhaps that will be what is necessary, finally, to prompt a re-evaluation of the very curious (and far from transparent) admissions practices at these supposed bastions of meritocracy.</p>

<p>One final note: the percentage of white students at two of the three specialized high schools (Stuy and Bronx Science) have also declined in the past five years.</p>

<p>The question is: where do the black and white children actually go? Your timeline tracks nicely with major changes in the public high school system, which created many special programs and small high schools that are more specifically tailored to individual students' desires. My daughter, for example, was admitted to one of the specialized high schools this year but chose the local IB program instead because of location and because she is more interested in humanities than in math/science. I, personally, know a bunch of both white and black kids who made other choices for personal reasons. There are a LOT of good options now that may be even better than Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Tech and Bronx Science. The place where culture MAY (this is just my opinon, so PLEASE don't ask for documentation) play a roll is in which students accept seats in those three schools: the Asian students. In the NYC Asian community, it's expected/desired to the nth degree that those are the only prestigious schools, which is no longer the case. So my personal conclusion is that the big three aren't the best way of meeting the needs and expectations of a diverse community anymore. Many kids can do as well or better elsewhere now, which wasn't the case in decades past.</p>

<p>Very interesting point, Zoosermom.</p>

<p>Swbutterfly and zoosermom both make valid points. My D was admitted to stuy and turned it down to stay at a smaller (6-12) magnet school with her friends. When my neice graduated from Tech a few years ago there did seemt to be less blacks in attendance (or at least at the graduation) then there had been when I attended in the 70's. </p>

<p>Over the past few years there have been also more educational options in both private and public education. The young black and hispanic kid who may have gotten into stuy, bx. science and tech are the same kids that have been admitted to the ABC programs and prep for prep and can get a free ride at an elite prep school. </p>

<p>In addition, over the past few years there have been more options as smallers schools, gateway programs and magnet programs and specialized programs with in regular high schools that have cropped up. I think now there is also a high school associated with every 4 year college of the cuny system (there is definitely on at City College, Baruch, Queens, Brooklyn, York) where students can earn high school and college credits at the same time. </p>

<p>I know a number of kids that turned down tech and bx. science to attend Townsend Harris, Beacon, Bard, NYC lab, Baruch College h.s., Eleanor Roosevelt, Midwood (which also turns out intels and siemens), to stay at Hunter and a host of others where they are getting the same rigor in a less stressful environment .</p>

<p>
[quote]
could the problem be cultural? There has been many media reports about African American teens feeling pressured not to do well academically. These kids are pressured not "act white" by getting good grades. (How sad!!!)

[/quote]
I think the problem is complex, a combination of culture and how our society interprets culture. A strong family can help. But without a great awareness of the many intricate ways living in America hits blacks where they live, even the strongest, most well-off black families are gonna turn out kids who perform poorer than whites and Asians across the board – whether in high school or college.</p>

<p>I truly wish there were some way to communicate just how pernicious it all is, and how ugly it can get when it takes hold of a young black child’s mind. I guess one might see some of it by</a> taking a look at this little video. Unfortunately it does not come even close to expressing what I mean. Also, I think the interviewees don’t understand, cognitively, the complexity of the problem. But I think they at least reveal a part of the problem. Imagine being a five, six or seven year-old and having to live with such a weight on your back. It is a marvel that blacks do as well as they do.</p>

<p>And the thing hits black kids at a remarkably early age. Shoot, by age five the damage is all done. It is just a matter of time before the effects will work themselves out in the black kid’s life. He tries to do well, but he is like a jet with its flaps perpetually lowered.</p>

<p>This thing can be short-circuited so that the kids are protected and left free to excel. But you gotta know about it first, preferably before you even have kids. Deal with this, and schools will have the same overrepresentation problem with blacks as they do with Asians.</p>

<p>I went to a middle school close to Bronx Science and more than 90% of the students were African-American/Hispanic. It was a relatively poor-performing school and they gave everyone who passed the previous year state tests an opportunity to get free classes (Kaplan!) over the summer in preparation for the Stuy/Bx. Science/Bklyn Tech exam. Out of 40 students (there were about 300 in the school), only about 7 took advantage of that opportunity, which goes to show you that the rest weren't extremely interested in the first place. Opportunity was there and is there still.
Now a Bronx Science senior, I get upset even imagining affirmative action replacing the existing system.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Out of 40 students (there were about 300 in the school), only about 7 took advantage of that opportunity, which goes to show you that the rest weren't extremely interested in the first place. Opportunity was there and is there still.

[/quote]
I find it hard to be indignant here because we are dealing with kids, fairly young kids. I suspect should we take any group of middle schoolers, regardless of race, and suggest to them that they give up their summer break to study, only about 7 of 40 will take the opportunity. They are middle schoolers, and likely are not able to perceive the value of this sort of opportunity on their own.</p>

<p>If this is true, then the disparity between the races in this instance is probably due to a difference in the perception of opportunity between the parents of these students, and not between the students themselves. I suspect whites are better able to perceive opportunity in America than blacks. I think this is because the difference in experience between these races is vast and has persisted since 1619 until this very minute. Blacks are like an elephant, deliberately conditioned over several hundred years to think they are much less than they are.</p>

<p>* An elephant was tethered to a pole when it was young. Struggling to free itself, the rope finally cut a sore around the elephant's leg. Realizing the futility of its attempts to escape, the elephant stopped trying. As the years went by, the elephant grew into an enormous creature and was used daily to dislodge and carry large poles to a pile. Every night he was tethered with the same size of rope to the pole. With his increased strength it would have been an easy matter to free himself, but he'd been conditioned to think it impossible.*
<a href="http://www.collegejournal.com/successwork/onjob/20001221-raudsepp.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegejournal.com/successwork/onjob/20001221-raudsepp.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Where many of us grow indignant when we “even think of affirmative action”, I grow indignant when we wish to take the one or two black kids who are essentially able to do as well as other kids despite being subjected to a history that has conditioned them to fail, and then throw them onto the effective trash heap of chance with literally hundreds of thousands of whites and Asians who have never known such a history. The reason I grow indignant is because we wish to call this obvious sham “equality” when it is nothing of the sort.</p>

<p>worth2try, I suspect that the relatively low "take up" rate at your middle school had a lot to do with the perception of the Bronx Science and Stuy as schools with relatively few black and Latino students and therefore "unwelcoming." Many students will pass up "opportunities" that they associate with social isolation or, worse, a hostile environment. IMO, one of the best ways to boost interest at the Middle School would be to have black or Latino students (or teachers) from neighboring Bronx Science do a recruiting visit. </p>

<p>You characterize the choice as being one of "affirmative action" versus the existing system. If by affirmative action you mean admissions criteria based on more than just a bizarrely scored entrance examination (see Post # 16) or where there is active outreach and recruitment of qualified students, then I'm all for it. </p>

<p>drosselmeier, that video is one of the most disturbing things I've seen lately.</p>

<p>"I think this is because the difference in experience between these races is vast and has persisted since 1619 until this very minute. Blacks are like an elephant, deliberately conditioned over several hundred years to think they are much less than they are". </p>

<p>I hope this isn't true. But not being of African descent, I cannot comment. And if it is true, then AA likely won't help because of the associated stigmatization that invariably comes with AA, which, of course, only feeds the perception of being less than one "is". But AA really doesn't matter anyway - keep it, get rid of it, it doesn't matter so long as the achievement gap is a great as it is. That, and not how much AA is practiced or implemented, is the big problem in a competitive, global, economy. </p>

<p>I actually favor concrete solutions. And the incredible preponderance of single mother homes in black and hispanic communities has to have (and does) and incredibly negative effect on academic performance. The fact that the Thernstroms go to great lengths to point makes them pariahs among liberal academics. But common sense makes it clear. And a public policy that disincents single motherhood sure makes sense to me.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I hope this isn't true. But not being of African descent, I cannot comment. And if it is true, then AA likely won't help because of the associated stigmatization that invariably comes with AA, which, of course, only feeds the perception of being less than one "is".

[/quote]
I don’t think the stigmatization is inevitable here. I think it comes because people are generally too heartless and selfish to see a picture bigger than themselves. I nevertheless understand that with a population as large as America’s, and as detached from history as most Americans are, expecting the public to be philosophical enough to identify with this issue is just a pipe-dream. I have severe suspicions of AA for these reasons. I nevertheless wish to keep it because, though it likely at best has only a marginal effect on solving the general problems you’ve mentioned, I think it is clear that it at least helps certain individuals who have proven themselves capable of doing well.</p>

<p>I guess my desire here is to give people who have endured negative conditioning a reason to question whether what they perceive is in fact the way things really are. If a kid from such an heritage tries, perhaps on a lark, to do well academically and succeeds, but does not continue to acquire the incentives to continue onward because the numbers of competing kids performing equally are too many, I think his negative conditioning will take over. In fact, I have seen this very many times and have even suffered it myself. I have no doubt at all that many black kids who deign to fantasize about engaging in some traditionally non-black pursuit, have been told even by their own families that such things are ridiculous, or that they are “white”, or a waste of time. When these kids try and then fail because their opponents are better equipped, less historically burdened and therefore psychologically freer to absorb risk, the black kids are ridiculed onto the ground! In many cases, they simply never get up again. I think AA helps alleviate some of this by opening and then highlighting (with a big metaphorical marker) the door of opportunity for the precious few black kids who are willing to experiment despite history.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But AA really doesn't matter anyway - keep it, get rid of it, it doesn't matter so long as the achievement gap is a great as it is. That, and not how much AA is practiced or implemented, is the big problem in a competitive, global, economy.

[/quote]
Absolutely. The thing that keeps hammering me is the fact that the world is not gonna slow down just because blacks incurred some major setbacks. I don’t even want it to work like this because I think with a few major adjustments, blacks can compete with all comers without much problem. There is no need for charity, and I don’t think it breeds a good fighting spirit anyway. But in the meantime, it is pretty hard for me to see so many bright kids getting trashed while we try to figure out how to solve the problem. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I actually favor concrete solutions. And the incredible preponderance of single mother homes in black and hispanic communities has to have (and does) and incredibly negative effect on academic performance. The fact that the Thernstroms go to great lengths to point makes them pariahs among liberal academics. But common sense makes it clear. And a public policy that disincents single motherhood sure makes sense to me.

[/quote]
Depends upon the policy. If we pass policies that are traditionally passed by people who say stuff like ‘we gotta “deincentivize” single parenthood’, we are just gonna do what we’ve always done, which is to just dump on and marginalize members of our society who by and large are really just trying to get by the best way they can. I don’t really think we can legislate this thing away, though thoughtful policy can help.</p>

<p>Drosselmeier:
The video took my breath away. How depressing - and illustrative of the problems we face.
Thanks (I guess)</p>

<p>zoosermom in response to your first post in this thread, students with parents that can't afford these prep schools yet are able to attend these free programs often don't go. they don't have guidance in junior high or their parents don't know how to take advantage of certain opportunities.</p>

<p>Zoosermom's point about alternatives explains another reason why many Black and Hispanic kids aren't gung ho about the three special NYC High Schools. I don't remember the name but one of the regular comprehensive high schools in Queens has become quite popular and attracts bright students, as do a few of the "theme" high schools like the business & finance school in Manhattan. And the high school on the Campus of City College maintains a joint-program that leads to the M.D. (at least it did at one time).</p>