In Elite N.Y. Schools, a Dip in Blacks and Hispanics

<p>More than a decade after the city created a special institute to prepare black and Hispanic students for the mind-bendingly difficult test that determines who gets into New York’s three most elite specialized high schools, the percentage of such students has not only failed to rise, it has declined. </p>

<p>The drop at Stuyvesant High School, the Bronx High School of Science and Brooklyn Technical High School mirrors a trend recently reported at three of the City University of New York’s five most prestigious colleges, where the proportion of black students has dropped significantly in the six years since rigorous admissions policies were adopted. </p>

<p>The changes indicate that even as New York City has started to bridge the racial achievement gap in the earlier grades, it has not been able to make similar headway at top public high schools and colleges. Asian enrollment at all three high schools has soared over the decade, while white enrollment has declined at two of the three schools.</p>

<p>City education officials said they were at a loss to explain the changes at the three high schools despite years of efforts to broaden the applicant pools.</p>

<p>Andres Alonso, the city’s deputy chancellor for teaching and learning, described the figures as “extraordinarily surprising,” even though they are the Department of Education’s numbers. Deputy Mayor Dennis M. Walcott called the schools “true gems of our system,” saying, “We have to make sure they’re open to all of our students.” </p>

<p>Still, during 2005-6, blacks made up 4.8 percent of the Bronx Science student body, according to city figures, down from 11.8 percent in 1994-95, when the institute was created. At Brooklyn Technical High School, the proportion of black students has declined to 14.9 percent from 37.3 percent 11 years ago, and at Stuyvesant, blacks now make up 2.2 percent of the student body, down from 4.4 percent. </p>

<p>Hispanic enrollment has also declined at the three schools, as has white enrollment at two of the three although it has risen at Brooklyn Tech. At the same time, the Asian population has reached as high as 60.6 percent at Bronx Science, up from 40.8 percent 11 years ago. Dr. Alonso said he could not explain the numbers without more information about how many black and Hispanic eighth graders take the specialized high school exam, and how many may favor other top city schools that are smaller or closer to home. He said he would insist that the department start collecting such information. </p>

<p>Over all, Hispanic students are the largest group in the city’s schools at 36.7 percent, and black students are next at 34.7 percent. The 1.1 million-student system is 14.3 percent Asian and 14.2 percent white.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/18/education/18schools.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/18/education/18schools.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>How totally unsatisfying. sybbie, you are closer to it - what do you think? Are less hispanics and aa's applying to these schools/taking the exam because they "favor" other schools in the district? Somehow that seems unlikely to me.</p>

<p>One of the comments mentioned in the article is true:</p>

<p>
[quote]
“Let’s face it — the playing field isn’t level,” she said. “People are paying tons of money to get their kids tutored to go to Stuyvesant.” </p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Just like college prep, test prep for the elite high schools is big business in NYC with students taking prep courses as early as 5th grade in hopes of getting into Stuyvesant. I know many of my D's asian friends from elementary school throughout high school have spent years going to prep courses either to get into stuyvesant or for the SATs.</p>

<p>My sister, who sent me the article just finished teaching an english course at Specialized High School Institute, and the many of students in her class was asian.
Overall, she feels the program is a win-win because even if kids do not end up in stuyvesant, they are building up skills that will help them in highschool.</p>

<p>Overall,less students apply because many students both minority and non-minority attend to their zoned neighborhood high schools.</p>

<p>I find that article interesting and a bit mystifying. My daughter was admitted to one of those schools (although we found a better option and didn't accept her seat). It is true that tutoring for the exam is big business, but it's also true that there are great opportunities for minority kids to have free tutoring in the summer before the test, there is another program that targets minority kids more than a year earlier and supports them through that time for admission, and some minority kids who just miss the cutoff can do a summer prep program and gain admission with lower scores. For the record, there is also free tutoring for non-minority kids and my daughter took advantage of that program. It was a great experience for her and I credit that with her admission to the specialized school, her receipt of a full scholarship to a nice private school, and her admission to the IB program in our local public school -- where she has accepted a seat. We live in a racially mixed neighborhood and I know some black and hispanic kids (this is not intended to be a blanket statement, just a personal observation) who could go to the specialized schools but choose other options because they are a better fit. This is unkind, but there is also a perception that at Stuyvesant, in particular, the community is a very aggressive, competitive Asian community that is extremely unwelcoming to non-Asians. I don't know if that's true or not, but news articles about the Chinese parent groups put those parents in a very bad light.</p>

<p>I don't have anything but a few anecdotes to contribute. My husband's nephew went to Stuyvesant, and he is one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. He loved it there. </p>

<p>My son's best friend is now taking a prep course for the city exam schools. The family is planning to move to NYC next summer, and he will enter high school in fall, 2007. I was shocked to hear that he is going to the course 2 evenings a week for 8 weeks. This sounds like an awful lot of preparation. He says that the test is incredibly hard. He is hoping to be admitted to an exam school in the Bronx that specializes in social studies. </p>

<p>It's certainly discouraging that the minority enrollment in the top schools has plummetted. I wonder if some minority kids are being crowded out by the kids who are preparing?</p>

<p>I know that the travel time to these exam schools can be daunting - well over an hour in some situations. I never realized until I lived in NYC how large it is, and how long it can take to travel within it.</p>

<p>"I know that the travel time to these exam schools can be daunting - well over an hour in some situations. I never realized until I lived in NYC how large it is, and how long it can take to travel within it."</p>

<p>Personally, I think you hit the nail on the head here. To make those trips you need to be totally committed or you need to be in a family situation that can handle the commute. My daughter was admitted to Bard (which I think is the best high school in New York City, bar none), but we chose to decline because of the commute. We live on Staten Island and Bard is located on East Houston Street and the FDR Drive. She decided that she wanted to stay closer so she could focus on things like fencing lessons and so forth. Also, the specialized high schools are math/science-focused (our specialized high school on SI is an engineering school whose only language offered in Russian) and so many kids opt out because the curricula don't interest them. There are also many spectactular schools and programs that appeal to other kids, and even math/science programs in other schools that offer the elite math/science with more balance. Those schools are simply not right for everyone and in the era of small schools, they're not even that desirable for many of the brightest.</p>

<p>I have neighbors whose kids attend Bx Sci and for those who take mass transit, it is about almost a 2 hour commute each way to get to school. Some parents pay for the private bus (about $200/month) to go to Bronx Science. From what they have said, it really does not cut back on the time because the bus is making other stops.</p>

<p>I remember when my D got accepted to Stuy, she did not do a prep course. The friends were going to take the test, she went, they hung out after the test was over. Thought school was too big and not right for her (she had already been to elementary school a block from stuyvesant so really wasn't inerested in coming back down town) so she stayed at her old school which was a smaller 6 thru 12 magnet school (97 kids in her graduating class). </p>

<p>I remember when I was in high school at tech students were complaining about how stuy can sometimes be cut throat competitive. I also think that the creation of smaller schools ex: Townsend Harris on the campus of Queens College and Eleanor Roosevelt (which is a fed from wagner j.hs and east side middle school, both on the upper east side) are opening up more options for kids who want rigor but in a less competitive environment.</p>

<p>I'm not from NYC, but I'm from another area that has magnet schools and a large Asian-American population. I can suggest three possible contributing factors:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>A math/science focus is exactly what many Asian students and parents are looking for, so it's no surprise that lots of Asian kids seek places in these schools and accept them when they are offered. </p></li>
<li><p>Asians do not believe the myth that girls are no good at math and science. Black, Hispanic, and white girls might choose not to apply to the exam schools because they're afraid they can't handle the work. Asian girls have no such hangups. (I would bet money that the proportion of Asians among the female populations of the exam schools is even higher than among the male population.)</p></li>
<li><p>The Asian-American test-prep establishment is state-of-the-art.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>It would be good to have more context to this story. Is enrolment declining because there are fewer qualified Hispanics and Blacks? Or is it declining because their local schools are improving and they see no need for a long commute to get a better education?</p>

<p>I kept my S in our public hs. In considering the pros and cons of a top prep school, a 45 minutes commute by public transport was a factor.</p>

<p>Same here Marite. The public math/science magnet is a good hour commute from our home. Same county but at the very opposite end. And no public transportation and the schools provide no transportation for magnets. So we would have had at least an hour commute, not including team practices and our responsibility for transportation.</p>

<p>Was true for all the students in his AP classes, and our local high school has very high URM percentages.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

<p>I do think that one issue that has not been addressed is that many black and hispanic students are caretakers for their younger brothers and sisters especially if their parents work (so sometimes the choice of school is made for them). </p>

<p>I know when I lived in Brooklyn, the zoned high school was 2 blocks from the middle school which was a couple of blocks from the elementary school, so it was not unusual to see older siblings dropping off younger siblings. My sister says the one of the biggest problems she encountered teaching a firs period class in a zone high school is that many students were absent from class becasue they were responsible for taking younger siblings to school (or at least making sure they got of the house on time). This presented a major disconnect where the elemenatry and middle schools do not start until 8:30 and first period classes at some schools start at 8 am or earlier. Even with the Specialized High School Institute, it takes place one afternoon, during the week (when students are picking up siblings) and on saturday for about 4 hours.</p>

<p>Zoosermom - I agree with you - Bard is an excellent school with an excellent faculty. Although it is a public school and lacks in facilities, it is doing an awesome job in terms of college placement.</p>

<p>Sybbie, I think that if the tests were administered to ALL of the kids, not just the ones who want to take them, you would get more URMs in the pool. But for right now, if test scores are the only thing that makes the cut, it may not make a huge difference. We are still at the point where the Hispanic/Black test scores are not as high as White/Asian test scores, so if you simply draw a line under the top so many scores, you are not going to get the representation that you want. As the top colleges are now doing, a more holistic examination of the students has to be a factor in order to get more of those URMs into the top schools.</p>

<p>I took a bus and between two and four trains to Stuy - 1 1/2 hours each way, back in the Dark Ages (both ways up hill!) I can say that without question even then the students were on the whole smarter than those to be found at the Ivies and AWS (I having been at W, and with lots of friends at the Ivies, etc.), and the school much more competitive (few Asians at the time - overwhelmingly Jewish). But to go Stuy, your parents had to have some inkling as to its value, over and above what could be found locally. Most of my friends who didn't attend didn't apply, not because they weren't smart enough, but because they didn't see the added value. And the same was true for Stuy grads as they were going off to college - many parents didn't see any added value in sending the kid off to Dartmouth when he could go, for free in those days, to City College. (In those days, NYU was the safety for City College, for those who could afford it, and NYU was thought of as a slacker's school.)</p>

<p>Admission Test's Scoring Quirk Throws Balance Into Question </p>

<p>By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
Published: November 12, 2005 (NewYork Times)</p>

<p>For weeks, Joshua N. Feinman had graded practice tests to help his daughter prepare for New York City's specialized high school exam. Then one day, he took a hard look at the scoring chart from her private test-prep class and was stunned by how the verbal and math scores added up. </p>

<p>''I took a look and said, 'Wow, this thing is really nonlinear,' '' said Mr. Feinman, the chief economist of Deutsche Asset Management. '' 'Wow, it's much better to score high in one and low in the other than to score good in both.' '' </p>

<p>Mr. Feinman had stumbled on a little-known facet of the test: because of the complex way it is graded, a student scoring extremely high on one part of the exam has a sharp advantage over a student with high but more balanced scores in each subject. </p>

<p>For Mr. Feinman's daughter, Amanda, and more than 26,000 other eighth graders who will get their results in February, the implications loom large. Last year, for instance, a student with a 99 percentile score in math and 49 percentile in verbal would have been admitted to Stuyvesant High School -- the most coveted specialized school -- but a student with a 97 in math and 92 in verbal would not. </p>

<p>As a result, test-prep tutors who understand how the test is scored advise their students to spend as much time as possible not where they are weakest, but on their stronger subject. Students are allotted two and a half hours for the exam and can divide the time as they wish. </p>

<p>City education officials and the company that has prepared the test since 1983, American Guidance Service, said that they were aware of the potential outcomes and that scoring for the exam had to be designed this way to identify the best test takers. They also said their hands were tied by state law, which they said required that admission to the specialized schools be based on a single combined score in math and verbal. </p>

<p>Officials also said that the test, which had not changed in at least 30 years, had served its purpose well, even as the number of children taking the test has soared. About 4,200 students were admitted to specialized testing high schools for ninth grade in September 2005. </p>

<p>''Parents should be really confident, and I am confident, that this is a scientifically valid and reliable test,'' said Lori Mei, the director of testing for the city schools. </p>

<p>But in an age of $325-an-hour test-prep tutors, and cutthroat competition for the best schools, some parents and testing experts said that even the slightest quirks in scoring should be publicized to ensure fairness. </p>

<p>''As taxpayers and parents, we should know how the test is graded -- not necessarily with an eye to changing it -- but certainly as a matter of public knowledge,'' said Mr. Feinman, who lives on the Upper East Side. ''It shouldn't be hidden or disclosed only to the select few who have the advantage of test prep.'' </p>

<p>Even some veteran test-prep tutors were surprised. </p>

<p>Barry Feldman, an owner of GRF Test Preparation, which tutored Mr. Feinman's daughter, said that in 24 years in the business, he has never focused on the scoring method. </p>

<p>''I just really never thought about it before,'' said Mr. Feldman, a retired junior high school math teacher and a 1964 graduate of Stuyvesant. ''What are the reasons? Why do they do it how they do it? I don't know. I really don't know, and I never really thought about questioning it.'' </p>

<p>Officials of American Guidance Service, a private company in Minnesota, said the test had been designed to the city's specifications. Principals of the six specialized schools are not involved in developing or grading the test, much as colleges are not involved in administering the SAT. </p>

<p>In essence, the scoring system rewards students with more points per question as they get closer to a perfect score on either math or verbal. </p>

<p>The impact of the scoring is potentially so great that a student with a perfect score in math last year could have answered fewer than half of the verbal questions correctly and still been admitted to Stuyvesant. But students who got 41 of 50 points on one part and 42 of 50 on the other would have fallen short of Stuyvesant's cutoff. </p>

<p>''Stuyvesant loves lopsided geniuses,'' said Naomi Bushman, a mathematics education consultant who runs a test-prep course for the exam. </p>

<p>The reverse was similarly true. A student with a perfect verbal score needed only 18 of 50 math questions for admission to Stuyvesant. The same student needed only 11 of 50 math questions correct for admission to the Bronx High School of Science and 9 correct to get into Brooklyn Technical High School. </p>

<p>Principals said they were aware that a super-high score on one part could substantially lift an applicant's chances, because many recent immigrants with extremely limited English skills had earned admission by posting exceptional math scores. But even principals said they were surprised to learn just how low a student could score on one part and still be admitted. The principals said they were typically not shown copies of the test or the score charts and were not asked their opinion of the results. </p>

<p>City officials acknowledged that they had not discussed the test with principals in recent years and that they had never conducted studies to gauge the validity of the test. But they insisted it was valid, as evidenced by the high graduation rates of the specialized schools. </p>

<p>But Regan Kenyon, the president of the Secondary School Admission Test Board, which publishes the admissions exam for 700 private schools and boarding schools, said validity studies, comparing students' test scores to their freshman year grades, were needed regularly. </p>

<p>''We don't know if the way they are selecting kids is the right way or not,'' he said of New York City. ''If you haven't done the study, then you don't have a transparent admission process.'' </p>

<p>Stanley Teitel, the principal of Stuyvesant, said that educators there had long wondered about establishing minimum cutoff scores, so no student could be admitted without scoring well on both verbal and math. But he said there should also be a place at Stuyvesant for students who are exceptional in one area. </p>

<p>Mr. Teitel said the school and its alumni would strongly resist using any criteria but the test for admissions. ''One of the things they love about the school is that it remains a true meritocracy,'' he said. ''You only get into Stuyvesant because you proved it on an exam.'' </p>

<p>But virtually all testing experts warned against using an exam as the sole basis for admissions decisions. The Boston Latin School judges applicants on test scores and grades. The Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology, a specialized school in Fairfax, Va., uses test scores, grades, essays and teacher recommendations. </p>

<p>According to American Guidance Service, 52 students -- or one-fifth of 1 percent of the more than 25,000 eighth graders who took the test last year -- scored perfectly on one part. Of these students, one scored in the 50 percentile on the other part of the test; some scored in the 60's, 70's or 80's, but most were in the 90's. </p>

<p>The test, known by its acronym SHSAT (pronounced Sh-ZAT), consists of 45 verbal questions and 50 math questions, with each part worth 50 points (five verbal reasoning questions are worth 2 points each). </p>

<p>The total for each part is scaled and curved, based on the difficulty level of individual questions and the relative performance of all test-takers, to a score from 20 to 400. Then, these two numbers are added to get a final score. </p>

<p>To differentiate among high achievers, there are wider gaps between scores at the top of the curve. On one form of last year's test, a verbalscore of 49 converted to a 345, while a perfect math score of 50 converted to a 365, a 20-point gap. But from 39 to 40 correct, the gap was only 5 points. </p>

<p>The city's official guide to the test describes the scaling of scores. But the guide never specifically explains that a high score in one subject can lift a low score in the other, or that students might benefit from focusing on their stronger subject. </p>

<p>Several test-prep instructors said they learned how the test is scaled by accompanying students to review their results. Any parent can request to see his or her child's test paper and results, but not the scoring chart. </p>

<p>Ms. Bushman, the math education consultant, said that she explained the scoring to her students but that the concept was hard to grasp. </p>

<p>''My advice to a student is that catching an error on his stronger side is worth more to his total score than catching an error on his weaker side,'' she said. </p>

<p>The lower a school's cutoff score, the bigger the problem, said Mr. Feinman, the economist. For example, a student in the 95 percentile in math and the 79 percentile in verbal could have made Bronx Science last year, beating out a student in the 94 percentile in math and the 81 percentile in verbal. </p>

<p>Mr. Feinman said these results seemed arbitrary. </p>

<p>''There is a notion that the kids who didn't get in are clearly inferior to those who did,'' he said. ''But I think what the grading suggests is there may be a significant number of cases where that is really, really hard to say.'' </p>

<p>Mr. Feinman added, ''If you don't have to spend your time equally you should spend it more on the area in which you are stronger, which would be counterintuitive, I think, to most people.''</p>

<p>My parents did not hesitate to give $1000 a piece for Kaplan for me and my brother even though we were immigrants for only a few years and did not make a lot of money. It's not true that only an upper middle class family or something of that sort can afford a couple of thousand for classes.</p>

<p>Also, the tutoring was more of a precaution than "the thing that got me in". I overshot the cutoff by a lot, even though the tests i took in the class showed only marginal improvement.</p>

<p>ultimately, the cutoff seems to work incredibly well, so why change anything?</p>

<p>Actually a teacher in Stuy suggested that the test be administered to all 8th graders during the school week, which i think is a good idea, since many choose not to take it.</p>

<p>"The lower a school's cutoff score, the bigger the problem, said Mr. Feinman, the economist. For example, a student in the 95 percentile in math and the 79 percentile in verbal could have made Bronx Science last year, beating out a student in the 94 percentile in math and the 81 percentile in verbal."</p>

<p>That does not show a system based on merit.</p>

<p>Tachobg: "Ultimately, the cutoff seems to work incredibly well, so why change anything?" </p>

<p>The British have a great expression for Tachobg-like views: "I'm alright Jack."
In America it translates: "I've got mine" (often accompanied by an upraised middle finger).</p>

<p>Whether we like it or not, some of this is cultural. The asian culture as well as the kids push for these outcomes. My minority students, (most, not all) when I talk to them about college, have difficulty seeing beyond their own neighborhood, and the family dynamics do not make it convenient for the kid to want to do anything more than CC, if that. elite schools, education and college are as foreign as sending their child to Mars. It is a difficult discussion, and they really don't understand FA and the possibility of going past CC. I have tried to mentor and work with these kids, and it is an uphill battle. Sometimes, when I can get through to the kids, the parents are the stumbling block.</p>