<p>I say educate them. Please. And then grant them citizenship or at least visas so they can get driver’s licenses and jobs! These poor kids, most who have lived in this country almost their entire lives, need opportunities, and being shipped back to a country that they do not know is wrong. And the kids who have the drive and ambition and intelligence and book smarts and ganas enough to make it into their state college should have the right to attend and pay instate tuition. I’ve been working with this population for the last 18 years…(edit - this population when they are lots younger!)</p>
<p>And people wonder how a state blessed with the land and weather that California has could be broke…there’s something in the water that keeps people from thinking clearly.</p>
<p>*“The children of today’s illegal immigrants did not choose to come to this country illegally, momofsongbird, and knows English and love “their country” as much as their legal counterparts.”</p>
<p>Yeah and my kid didn’t choose to live in Texas either, yet I don’t see the state of California offering her instate tuition. Just sayin’. *</p>
<p>Perfect smackdown! LOLOLOLOL</p>
<p>*Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2collegekids
BTW…there is no such thing as “state citizenship” In this country, you’re a citizen of the country…not a state.</p>
<p>Say what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Article IV, Section 2
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14th Amendment, Section 1
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.*</p>
<p>We are not citizens of each state. That’s ridiculous.</p>
<p>States don’t draft us. States don’t issue our passports. We don’t pledge allegiance to a state. </p>
<p>We don’t change our citizenship when we move from state to state.</p>
<p>We are residents of a state, we are citizens of the USA.</p>
<p>But the point is…that the state of Calif has no business doing this when they are at the point of needing the rest of the 49 states to pay for their stupid decisions. </p>
<p>If they want to be their own “California citizens,” then they have no business asking the other 49 states’ “citizens” to pay for their policies. </p>
<p>(Calif is already borrowing mega millions every day from the federal govt’ …i.e. money from the “citizens” of other states. )</p>
<p>*All of you California bashers have your work cut out for you. Eight other states have the same/similar law allowing young people who have completed 2-3 years of high school and initiated US citizenship to enroll in the state university system and pay in-state tuition: Texas, New York, Kansas, Illinois, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Utah and Washington. *</p>
<p>If these 8 other states want to do this while meeting payroll and balancing their budgets, then fine. If they’re in the same financial shape as Calif, then they’re being irresponsible, too.</p>
<p>I like the new poster Mamita’s comments back a page</p>
<p><a href=“I’m%20a%20daughter%20of%20legal%20immigrants%20and%20a%20CA%20resident…”>quote</a>
In-state tuition and fees are largely unaffordable to many of the low-income students who are here illegally. They are not eligible for any Cal grants or Pell grants or scholarships from a public university. If they are paying tuition and fees, it is at the same rate as other California residents, and more than low-income legal residents or citizens.</p>
<p>No one specifically mentioned this, but it seems to be assumed that somehow California is paying for these students’ college degrees. The illegal resident student is allowed to apply for and attend a California public, if they – like anyone else-- can pay.</p>
<p>The bigger issue really is, what will these students do once they graduate? We have, as a society, invested in all of the children who live here. I do think that the dream act would allow these students to contribute back to society (higher earnings=higher taxes).</p>
<p>Complex issue though; I am not an open-borders proponent, either.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think we need options for kids who were brought here early. I love the idea of national service being a way of gaining citizenship. Military, domestic volunteer, etc. Might be more cost effective to require that service after college, like ROTC. </p>
<p>The real problem comes when these undocumented/illegal kids want to get jobs, and can’t because they don’t have SS#s.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You must not work in a public school in Texas. Every morning
“Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible.” </p>
<p>Don’t message me with grammar or historical facts. This is state law.</p>
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<p>You know, the issue of illegal immigrant students getting in-state tuition in California is hardly an issue limited to Mexicans. I know of at least one illegal immigrant Asian student who is a class Val, with the stats and smarts to get into a tippy-top school. Which is what the student will need, since the family has no money and even UC or Cal State at in-state rates would be unaffordable. </p>
<p>When I read articles like this
[Mexico</a> drug war: A city behind enemy lines - latimes.com](<a href=“http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-cartel-rule-20101106,0,7042267.story]Mexico”>http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-cartel-rule-20101106,0,7042267.story)
I realize that if I was living under those kinds of conditions, I’d make my way to the US any way I could.</p>
<p>In today’s LA Times, UC schools are now actively recruiting out of state in order to help manage their budgets. </p>
<p>[UC</a> campuses move to recruit more out-of-state students - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/14/local/la-me-uc-recruit-20101115]UC”>http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/14/local/la-me-uc-recruit-20101115)</p>
<p>And with another 8% increase on the way, they cannot afford to educate the students who are currently CA residents…let’s recruit OOS payers.</p>
<p>Even if undocumented students don’t get California or Federal aid, the costs to educate each student - including those who are full pay in and out of state - are still being absorbed by the state taxpayers. It’s a difficult dilemma. Public universities don’t always cost less to educate students - it’s just that the students, themselves, don’t see the true costs. They think tuition and their fees pay for everything. The math doesn’t add up in CA.</p>
<p>Dragonmom, interesting that you mention national service, I thought about that also. I don’t understand how these children are able to enroll in public K-12? Don’t schools require SS numbers, immunization records. Mine almost got tossed from public first grade because I forgot to sign the Hep B waiver as I didn’t immunize mine for Hep B until they were in middle school. How do kids that are not here on visas or citizens enter public elementary and public high schools? There’s where the problem starts. They should be required to apply for citizenship the moment they enter the “public” system for any reason - education, medical, etc. etc. and have a documeted plan to complete the required paperwork. Companies can’t hire employees without propert I9 so how do kids get into public schools without proper documents? Is there a loophole somewhere? I thought illegals were not allowed to participate in federally funded program? So how does public K-12 fall through the cracks and they aren’t caught and proper immigration procedures instituted? It’s such a logical gateway point to process a student into a school.</p>
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<p>Beat you both. 
I suggested this mega-long-ago on one of the threads. 
What it would essentially do is to require the previously illegal immigrant to do the equivalent of paying back their free tuition (and other services) via a long period of national service. They would get a small living allowance during that time period, and they would not be limited only to military service, although that of course could be an option. I also don’t have a problem with any civilian service providing training opportunities (job paths), as is often true in military service. </p>
<p>As to the social security # mentioned earlier, that’s not a hurdle. It would be applied retroactively (attached to whatever legal name had been used), thus providing an accurate history for any work experience.</p>
<p>ETA, back up to mom3
No, public schools are only required to verify that a kid lives within the school zone (0r is homeless but is mostly in the boundry, like lives under the overpass). They have to be immunized according to state rules.<br>
Would you like to have undocumented kids selling Chicklets on the beach, like in other coutries?</p>
<p>I agree that there should be some plan for becomming a citizen when a person of wharever age enters they system. Years of public service required depending on age, etc</p>
<p>"I realize that if I was living under those kinds of conditions, I’d make my way to the US any way I could. "</p>
<p>everybody acts in their own best interests - so why can’t we? lots of people live in countries with much worse living conditions, corruption and violence against its citizens (think somalia). the only thing that distinguishes mexicans is that they live next door. do we absorb and educate every kid in the world whose parents hitch a ride under some bus or in a steamer truck? </p>
<p>as for those terribly bright asian illegals (who are without doubt far fewer in number than those from mexico), we have a ready supply of poor and underprivileged american kids to educate. how do you know they aren’t bright as well?</p>
<p>Agreed on national service as a way of gaining citizenship; this would be a win-win.</p>
<p>And agreed with Slithy Tove about the horrendous situations that many people leave. Not sayin’ it is ‘right’ to come here illegally; sayin’ it is understandable.</p>
<p>A bit of historical trivia for mom3 and others regarding k-12: </p>
<p>The U.S. Supreme Court apparently heard a Texas case in the 1980s (Plyer v. Doe?), and it ruled that failing to provide a free, public education to undocumented children as the state did for other children violated the Equal Protection clause of the 14th amendment and that the 14th amendment was not limited to the protection of citizens. Thus, most times when states try to implement laws barring undocumented children from public education, those laws are found to be unconstitutional (e.g, prop 187 in California-- sorry don’t recall the year.) </p>
<p>And, we can probably agree that we don’t want little children working in factories or – as dragonmom puts it-- selling Chicklets on the beach. Kids out of school would create expenditures in other systems rather than in education to deal with the fallout (CPS, labor inspections, perhaps juvenile justice, etc.)</p>
<p>I agree that the state is hard pressed to cover costs, and that all state university educations are partially subsidized, but I don’t know how many AB540 students there are, and of these, how many are undocumented. </p>
<p>I guess I really just feel for all students who would make a great contribution to our society, especially if they are students who beat the odds, growing up in extremely difficult circumstances. Let them contribute back. National service; full circle.</p>
<p>My point is not that you boot the kids that enter public schools so they can sell chicklets but that is a perfect gateway to get them documented and start the process…if the adults that brought them here don’t like it, well too bad they can go back to where they came from, we have a process for that. But simply looking the other way and continuing to educate is not the answer on any level. That is merely pressing the problem farther into the system…now they are 18, assimilated and want to go to college? What have we taught them about citizenship and laws etc. It has to stop somewhere so why not with chidren and their guardians and the point of entry into the public systems. I don’t care if they are Asian, Hispanic, European or any nationality…if they come here they can abide by the law or the guardians of these children can abide by the law or our brilliant minds can come up with a better way to process underage children than to simply allow them into the system and look the other way and say oh well they’ve assimilated so now they can go to college…where does it stop? Give the kids dual citizenship and tell them or the guardians the kids need to become citizens legally before age 21 or give up the US citizenship at age 21, but simply looking the other way irks me.</p>
<p>
I beg to differ. There was a required process immigrants had to go through. Some were accepted into the country, some were not, based on that process. And there was a legal path to citizenship offered (and encouraged) to those legal immigrants – none of which is true for today’s border-jumping illegals.</p>
<p>It is absolutely a problem, and a conundrum, isn’t it? It is very difficult to get legal residency; otherwise, most every undocumented parent here would be glad to, when registering their children at kindegarten, start the process of legal residency. Brilliant minds should come together to find a better way.</p>
<p>My German ancestors came through Baltimore in the early 1830’s. You had to have permission to leave your German principality and you had to have a passport. You were checked over by a doctor before disembarking the ship in Baltimore to make sure you carried no diseases. And since there were absolutely no government welfare programs you had to have money to buy a farm, farm animals, a wagon, etc.</p>
<p>Why doesn’t the state just deport them? Hmmmm…good question.</p>
<p>Anyway, why are they going to California Public K-12 Schools for free when they are illegal. Why doesn’t someone deport them?</p>
<p>Once they turn 16 and have lived in this country illegally for many years they are unable to get a job (because they are illegal). I wonder why so many turn to crime, they should be deported!</p>
<p>Now they are 18 and want to go to college. There are only a few that are able to rise above their forced circumstances of being illegal, by their parents and the state of CA (why did they allow their parents to stay here all this time illegally?). So now the state will allow them in state tuition at college. Now that YOUR kids are involved (what, MY kid has to pay out of state tuition and those illegal immigrant children don’t?) you’re all screaming NOT FAIR! Did you all go out to dinner and see the illegal immigrants busing your tables, washing your dishes, mowing the lawn? Who cleans all the rooms in those CA hotels, you know the one’s by Disneyland (well they don’t speak English but they MUST be legal, I wouldn’t want to save a buck by staying at a hotel that didn’t make it a priority to only hire legal residents). You can’t have your cake and eat it too people! </p>
<p>The fact that so many of you really think these kids can actually come up with $25,000 per year for their education is hysterical–THEY’RE ILLEGAL. They can’t get a grant, a loan or even a job. Their parents are making minimum wage mowing your lawns and washing your dishes. If you were really concerned about illegal immigration you would have raised h**l about this situation a long time ago. You would be calling your local leaders when the neighborhood truck full of illegals pulls up to do everyone’s lawn, etc…</p>
<p>When corporate America decides to stop making a profit on the backs of immigrants (as they have been doing for many many years) the “problem” will go away. They wouldn’t come here if PEOPLE DIDN’T HIRE THEM! Quit your whining and mow you own lawns, clean your own house, wash your own cars, raise your own children (illegal immigrant nannies-really, you trust them with your children?), and cook your own food! Or cough up the $ that a legal resident would demand.</p>
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<p>Baseless tirade, much? What makes you think you know a thing about what posters on this thread have and haven’t done to address the problem, and what educational & financial aid status their own children have? I appreciate your passion, but please stop making assumptions about people you don’t know. “My kids” were not negatively affected by illegal immigration, because they were fortunate to attend private schools with heavy financial aid and having performed to an outstanding level despite compromised economic circumstances. You seem yourself like a principled person (re your statement about hotels, etc.); do you assume that others are not, and only get involved out of self-interest and at no other time? If so, that’s a pretty arrogant assumption, so I hope that’s not what you truly think.</p>
<p>It’s an aspect of every professional in education – or should be – to advocate for all children in education, not just their own. That’s why I have tried passionately to provide equal opportunities for poor legal residents who have been squeezed out of the same quality of public education that I had as a child, in the same locality. But poor English-speaking legal residents are being passed over for standard K-12 classes very often conducted in Spanish, so that the English speakers are learning zero. I’m outraged that many of my students have been, and are still being, ignored in the public schools, where now the dominant population is Hispanic, mostly non-fluent. They don’t have the luxury of fleeing to a different district, or to a private school, unlike most of the white population. (27% of public school children in CA are white; most of those are in affluent white suburbs.) If you go to any inner- or outer- urban public in CA, you will find almost no student who is not a URM, although one clearly now has to question the “M” part: Latino (largest), southeast Asian (second), African-American (third). The luckier black families are enrolled in the Leadership, Aspire, and KIPP charter schools, many of which are close to 100% black; one of their advantages is that, Wow, classes are taught in English. Imagine.</p>
<p>This is a social justice issue for me. Major.</p>