<p>I don’t think we will see any improvements or progress on illegal immigration until we totally shut down our borders. Then the good people of this country will come together as they always manage to do and figure out a solution. But the first step HAS to be closing the border.</p>
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<p>I can accept that as a reasonable position; however, I think it is disingenuous and a red herring to proclaim that because “they pay taxes,” illegal immigrants are entitled to in-state tuition rates. Virtually everyone who sets foot in the State of CA pays taxes to the state in one form or another.</p>
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<p>I don’t consider people who have not attended college “second class” citizens. There are plenty of American citizens who choose a career that does not include college, and they contribute as much and sometimes more to our society. It is insulting to assume otherwise.</p>
<p>Every kid ends up living the consequence of their parents’ actions. If their parents make over 120K, but choose not to save any money for college, then those kids do not have any money to go to school AND they are not eligible for FA. If their parents choose not file FASFA, then they can’t apply for FA. If their parents have a lot of $$, but decide to spend the money else where, then no money for college tuition.</p>
<p>As parents, everything we do has some impact on our children. Some parents make good choices and some do not.</p>
<p>“I think it is disingenuous and a red herring to proclaim that because “they pay taxes,” illegal immigrants are entitled to in-state tuition rates.”</p>
<p>No, it’s not because they pay taxes, it’s because they have gone to high school here, graduated, and qualified for college. They should also not be victims of their parents’ efforts at a better life for the family (though some clearly think otherwise 
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<p>Really? So society should just ignore anything that has to do with the choices of parents? How about childhood obesity? Sorry kid-tough luck! Some parents serve healthy meals and some do not. Or were you exploited by corporate America–you know those commercials for all those happy meals and pop tarts? Not our problem either. Child abuse–well your parents are illegal so not our problem.</p>
<p>It sounds sort of dog-eat-dog to me–and when children are concerned I find that pretty disheartening. </p>
<p>I am not a proponent of illegal immigration–CLOSE THE BOARDERS, check paperwork, hold employers accountable. BUT when we as a nation allow “the problem” by patronizing establishments that hire illegal immigrants (uhm, yes they know they are illegal and that their paperwork is forged) then as human beings we need to be prepared to deal with the consequences. </p>
<p>I would love to know what percent of Californian’s hire illegal immigrants as gardener’s
or take their cars to car washes that employ illegal immigrants (and the I can’t check their paperwork is a crock–you KNOW they are illegal). Can you imagine the price you would have to pay for these services if you had to pay legal workers? Can you imagine the absolute uproar if Californians couldn’t get their weekly car wash at a reasonable price? Oh the dirt–give them in-state tuition, please! Anything!</p>
<p>Until you understand how the economy of CA really works you should be careful about what you wish for.</p>
<p>Contrary to what an earlier poster asserts (with no evidence) in post 106, illegal immigration is a crime in the United States. An illegal immigrant can face both criminal penalties (including imprisonment) and civil penalties. It is a crime to enter the United States illegally, whether or not the individual is employed in the U.S.</p>
<p>Here’s the evidence, straight from the U.S. Code:</p>
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<p>I can understand people having varying views on illegal immigration, but asserting that illegal immigration is not a crime doesn’t make it so and adds nothing to the discussion.</p>
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<p>How would you propose to solve this problem? Go to each home and mandate what they could serve their kids? Those kids live with their parents’ actions.</p>
<p>By offering free education, public assistance to illegals, we are rewarding bad behavior, and we will continue to have people risking their lives in order to get what they couldn’t get at home. No need to shut down the borders, if they couldn’t get a job (without documentation), provide good education, health care for their children(and parents), no one would be in such a hurry in sneaking into the US.</p>
<p>oldfort, you stated: “Every kid ends up living the consequence of their parents’ actions. If their parents make over 120K, but choose not to save any money for college, then those kids do not have any money to go to school AND they are not eligible for FA.” These kids are NOT ELIGIBLE for FA. We’re not talking FA. They qualify for in-state tuition: they’ve graduated, have the necessary grades, meet the in-state definition. </p>
<p>Bay, I agree with your statement: “I don’t consider people who have not attended college “second class” citizens.”. I’m talking about a situation where one is deprived of the option to attend college because their state school wants to charge them out of state tuition — they do not qualify for FA; there’s no way they can afford those rates. So they are FORCED into a situation where higher ed is NOT an option. In that case, we’re creating a 2nd class citizenry — children of the undocumented who attend our HS’s, graduate, and can then go to work at a car wash because the dream of college is just that, only a dream.</p>
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So what if they are qualify for in-state tuition? If their parents didn’t have money saved and they couldn’t get any FA, then they still couldn’t go to college, whether it’s in state or out of state. My point is when parents make bad choices then kids live with the consequence, whether they are legal or illegal.</p>
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<p>Yes, and in my area, I’ve heard that happens often with Chinese kids. The local school districts have a good reputation, and I have heard that Chinese parents send their kids over to live with relatives or in a group house for high school.</p>
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<p>This is not true. Yes, their higher ed options will be limited, but there are some private universities (including Harvard) who give full scholarships to illegal immigrants who are outstanding students. An even if they do go to college, they are not eligible to legally get a job here anyway.</p>
<p>People need to keep this issue in perspective. Not getting to go to college at in-state rates when you are the first generation to illegally cross into the US is not the end of the world. There are plenty of well-paying and fulfilling careers that do not require a college degree. It is not unreasonable to expect illegal immigrants to make some sacrifices in exchange for the extremely generous bounty we provide them here. Even if one generation doesn’t get to go to college, their US-born kids will get to go.</p>
<p>CA taxpayers should not be FORCED to bear the burden of paying for the higher education of illegal immigrants.</p>
<p>Btw, again you insult the non-college bound by making the assumption that their only recourse is to work at a car wash. That is, unless you are referring to the fact that undocumented immigrants, regardless of their educational pedigree, are not eligible to work anywhere in the US other than places like car washes that don’t check papers. This won’t change for them after they graduate from UCLA.</p>
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<p>California taxpayers have chosen to grant resident tuition to all residents, regardless of immigration status.</p>
<p>“Some parents make good choices and some do not.”</p>
<p>The undocumented parents who bring their kids here are obviously making a very good choice for everyone; the family can work, the kids can learn, our food, yard care, etc., stay cheap, the economy is stimulated, taxes are collected. Win, win.</p>
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<p>Why don’t you enlighten California residents by letting them know which ballot measure they voted for, to state such a “choice.”</p>
<p>The choice was made by governing bodies in CA.</p>
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<p>You have a simplistic and generalized view which does not account for many variables that end up being lose/lose. </p>
<p>(1) Immigrant kids get to learn in their native language, while resident kids in K-12 get to sit and listen to lessons delivered in Spanish, learning nothing. Yes, the illegal immigrant kids “get to learn,” but apparently not the residents.</p>
<p>(2) I hire legal immigrants, whatever they speak. My Italian gardener spoke almost no English, but he was here legally. I paid him a fair, competitive wage which he charged. I didn’t get it “cheap” (illegally) and consider that by doing something immoral I was “winning.”</p>
<p>(3) “Taxes are collected.” Sometimes. Illegal immigration is a huge source of underground, untaxed economy. Where have you been? Just because many of them also work in establishments doesn’t mean that just as many of them aren’t avoiding taxes altogether. </p>
<p>I’m glad you think it’s win/win, but I consider your reasoning both simplistic & cynical. Lots of people (as in Californians) think it’s win/lose, and still another contingent believes that ultimately it’s lose/lose.</p>
<p>Another class of people that this law benefits: people like my kids, who went to high school in CA, graduated but have moved away to another state to work. They will be able to attend grad school at in state rates.</p>
<p>^ good point, ellemenope. In its opinion, the California Supreme Court noted: “Indeed, the Regents inform us that a majority of University of California students receiving the nonresident tuition exemption are in this country lawfully.”</p>
<p>See the Supreme Court opinion (which is this week’s ruling–the opinion ephiphany provided above is a 2008 lower court ruling) at p. 11: <a href=“Site Has Moved”>http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S167791.PDF</a></p>
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<p>Obviously. No one’s concerned with what the “majority” are receiving, nor am I concerned with bad or contorted reasoning that a particular court is supplying. To say that the majority of students are here legally does not address the issue at hand. There should be a legal standard that applies equitably across the board, so that, for example, legal immigrants in CA less than 3 years might benefit, which now they do not. The entire position is PC-apologetics. </p>
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<p>You missed the entire point of my posting the link. The link was posted for the thoroughness of the discussion of issues discussed on this thread, such as comparing who does and does not benefit from the standards and definitions currently in place (also in place in '08). The link brought up relevant arguments to this topic, which are important to a deeper understanding than some of the casually dismissive repsonses on this thread.</p>
<p>There’s only one “h” in my screen name.</p>
<p>“<a href=“1”>i</a> Immigrant kids get to learn in their native language, while resident kids in K-12 get to sit and listen to lessons delivered in Spanish, learning nothing. Yes, the illegal immigrant kids “get to learn,” but apparently not the residents.*”</p>
<p>Even if true on a broad scale, this is irrelevant, applying to legal immigrants as well, but it does help to explain why you feel as you do.</p>
<p>“<a href=“2”>i</a> I hire legal immigrants, whatever they speak. My Italian gardener spoke almost no English, but he was here legally. I paid him a fair, competitive wage which he charged. I didn’t get it “cheap” (illegally) and consider that by doing something immoral I was “winning.”*”</p>
<p>I confess that I don’t check the papers of hired help. But whether we like it or not, we all benefit by the low wages paid to agricultural, domestic and other undocumented workers.</p>
<p>“<a href=“3”>i</a> “Taxes are collected.” Sometimes. Illegal immigration is a huge source of underground, untaxed economy. Where have you been? Just because many of them also work in establishments doesn’t mean that just as many of them aren’t avoiding taxes altogether. *”</p>
<p>How does anyone living in this economy avoid paying taxes? Where I have been (in California), we pay taxes on virtually everything we buy except food at the market. Renters pay property taxes as part of their rent.</p>
<p>Hi, epiphany, I am so sorry I misspelled your name in my post. </p>
<p>I didn’t “miss the entire point” of your sharing the 2008 lower court ruling. Because I quoted from this week’s opinion of the Supreme Court, it was only proper to include a link to it. I simply distinguished the decision by date to prevent confusion.</p>