<p>Are undocumented UC students ineligible for financial aid?</p>
<p>Texas was the first state to pass a law of this type in the nation in 2001, and California followed shortly thereafter, also in 2001. The laws of the two states are nearly identical in provision, i.e., they both allow for in-state tuition for three types of students, two of which are “legal” and one of which is the undocumented student at issue in this thread.</p>
<p>The numbers of undocumented students who have taken advantage of the law have run about the same in both states–1% or fewer.</p>
<p>So, respectfully, I don’t think my observations are “OFF TOPIC.” The experiences of our states are very similar. And to be sure, there are plenty of Texans who dislike this law just as there are plenty of Californians who dislike this like.</p>
<p>The only difference between California and Texas is, California provides no state aid to these students. Texas does. </p>
<p>And responsive to mokusatsu, federal aid is NOT available to any of these kids, regardless of states.</p>
<p>epiphany, your repeated reference to the desirability of a federal solution is not, to use your words, “ON TOPIC” because the federal government has no say in state education policy and law. The federal role in this issue is limited to the issue of the path to US citizenship for these immigrants. </p>
<p>Which is really the point here, as I see it. </p>
<p>Let’s look at the school pie of students. Let’s say it is composed as follows:</p>
<p>20% paying out of state / international tuition
63% paying in-state tuition and receiving state and/or federal aid (this was UC’s number for the 2008-09 school year)
17% paying in-state tuition at 100% rate, 1% of whom are undocumented students</p>
<p>The issue at hand, then, whether it’s you in California or me in Texas is, </p>
<p>Do I, as a taxpayer, have a problem with my state tax dollars allowing 1% of the seats in class to be occupied by Jose instead of Joseph?</p>
<p>Or do I, as a taxpayer, support my state tax dollars allowing 1% of the seats in the class to be occupied by the most competitive applicant for that educational experience?</p>
<p>Many posters on this thread have been very honest in expressing their opinion that no, they don’t support in-state tuition because it is unfair for an undocumented student to take the place of a citizen. I may not agree with that position, but I respect the honesty of it.</p>
<p>^ Epiphany is right; many people are in denial about the situation. Here’s an example:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No. It is a federal crime to immigrate without permission. It is also a federal crime to fail to register as an alien after age 14. Federal law grants no exceptions to the registration requirements to those illegal aliens whose parents brought them here at a younger age. Denying that these laws exist means that opponents of them will never get them changed. Offering benefits to the children of illegal immigrants (such as in-state tuition rates) and failing to enforce the existing laws does nothing to discourage additional illegal immigrants from moving to America. </p>
<p>You might wish that the federal role was limited to the issue of a path to citizenship, but that doesn’t make it true.</p>
<p>We are actually 100% in agreement, Schokolade. </p>
<p>The federal issue is immigration. Period. Whether you characterize it in the context of enforcement of current immigration law or I characterize it in the context of reform to provide a legal path to citizenship for certain people, we are talking about the same thing. It’s simply that the terminology used reflects our different political opinions on the issue. It is a very challenging issue for our country, and it is easy to see arguments on both sides. I certainly respect your position. I am simply not going to debate it here because the Mod has clearly stated this thread should be confined to the impact of this law on state-supported college education.</p>
<p>"I am surprised you’re willing to offer illegal immigrants a place to stay in our prisons on the taxpayer’s dime, though. "</p>
<p>-I have never said that. They should not be using taxpayer’s $$.</p>
<p>I have been appreciating this thread for the honesty of the posts, and for many of the posts’ nuanced views on a difficult topic. I would like to remark that, similar to calimami, I am most concerned about the problems in CA k-12 schools, especially our schools in middle class to very low-income communities. The poor quality of education impacts the students’ options for college and for life. In California, the majority of our students are now “minority” students (or at least that is the case in many communities).</p>
<p>Not all of us can live in communities in which you pay 1 million+ dollars for a fixer-upper in order to attend a primo school-district, not all of us can afford private schools, not all of us have kids who meet the demographics of specialized charter schools (be they music talent or at-risk status), or meet the criteria for scholarships to primary/secondary schools. So, we make due with what is available in our public school districts.</p>
<p>In my community, I see the disparity that calimami describes. Someone I know through work has kids who attend a tippy-top public in a different community. (Spouse inherited home…) His kids are under undue stress due to an educational and peer environment with expectations that everyone can manage 12 or more APs, high-powered extracurriculars, and the cost of college. Attendance at a UC is almost seen as an underachievement, even Cal or UCLA. However, students and parents are respected, and he feels his kids are getting a great, free education.</p>
<p>My kids’ high school, in contrast, has provided an extremely uneven educational experience, though perhaps less external pressure. The best students there go to UCs; very few apply to private schools. Many students spurn achievement as a goal, and fail to take advantage of the support that is offered, limited though it may be. So, there are internalized values to an anti-intellectual American sub-culture that does not serve these students well. My older d, who does attend a tippy-top private (costs us what a UC would, due to fin. aid), stated upon starting that she was overjoyed finally to be in an environment in which she would not be classified as a Geek for wanting to learn and excel. However, she is doing well at college, so she must have learned something at that poorly-rated high-school.</p>
<p>So, I do not begrudge the 1% who are undocumented, get into a UC and attend, or those who attend the CCs and CSUs. Many of those students have overcome incredible odds (both in terms of external support and in terms of maintaining a positive attitude toward learning) to be where they are. </p>
<p>I do think the larger issue relates to providing a solid educational experience in K-12 for students from a wide range of backgrounds and inherent talents. How do we do this well, given the lack of funding? Due to that lack of funding, people begin to have a very zero-sum frame of mind about their kids’ educational options. I can understand this, and struggle with it myself.</p>
<p>(And, yes, illegal immigration is an important larger, federal issue, not only in the US… it is a global issue, as many other countries have parallel struggles. But those issues are a bit outside of the purview of the college discussion.)</p>
<p>Question for the assembly: Would a recently transplanted American citizen immediately qualify for CA tuition residency status as do illegal aliens? Or would this citizen have to follow the law and wait for the “time in residency” requirement to be met? I’m curious to know.</p>
<p>Toblin, I think it has been stated clearly many times. It’s about residency for all. 3 years during high school, plus graduation from high school in California. It is just decoupled from immigration status, that’s all. Same rules for all the kids. Everyone who meets that residency requirement is following the law when they request in-state tuition.</p>
<p>I do pro bono work with low-income students, helping families to fill out their FAFSA’s. The idea that most immigrant families can pay the cost of attendance at a UC or CSU, even with in-state tuition, is ludicrous. The COA for resident students at a CSU is about $20k, at a UC about $30k. I work with families whose total annual income is less than that. With full financial aid (no gapping), their kids can attend a CSU or UC. Without financial aid, which is the situation for undocumented students, it is not possible without generous private scholarships that cover the full cost. So all the angst on this thread is about a tiny number of students.</p>
<p>“So all the angst on this thread is about a tiny number of students.”</p>
<p>And if we as a society cannot extend a helping hand to that tiny number of students whose parents pick our food, mow our lawns, fix our houses and perform a myriad of services we’re uninterested in performing – well, then God bless America indeed, because we need it badly.</p>
<p>toblin:</p>
<p>if a family moves into California from another state at least one year prior to matriculating to a UC/Cal State/community college, they can petition for instate tuition and it will usually be granted.</p>
<p>Post 159:</p>
<p>Yes, Cardinal Fang. My bad. It’s a large component. However, a different statistic (the one I was thinking about when posting the error) is that only about 3% of the total illegal immigrant population (I believe the figure is statewide, not nationally, but we could check that out) are employed in CA’s agricultural industry. Most illegal immigrants from Latin America (especially) go directly to the hospitality industry, various forms of private housecleaning, childcare, and medical care, construction, private landscaping, and retail/restaurant. The myth is that a large percentage of illegals continue to go to CA agriculture; that may have been previously true, but no longer. There are far more options for them, which naturally they prefer.</p>
<p>Someone with their eyes wide open can see all the severe problems caused by illegal immigration in California. Try living here awhile and being out in public. Follow the news. Have your kids attend public schools and hear about low test scores (umm brought down by the untenable numbers of non English speakers…)
I am astonished in-state tuition is offered to so-called “residents” brought here by parents. It is a slippery slope to say, well it’s not my fault, by parent, or uncle or whatever brought me here.
We are already highly taxed, California state government is clearly almost non-functioning.
We HAD a fine system of public higher education - not sure how long that will be sustained with thousands or millions of “residents” claiming in-state fees, scholarships and other public support.</p>
<p>^^epiphany #171 That makes more sense. The celebrity chef Anthony Bourdain says that if we somehow removed all illegal aliens from the US, every restaurant would shut down. (That’s probably an exaggeration, but there are many, many busboys, dishwashers, line cooks and waiters not here legally.)</p>