<p>I think one fallacy in this article is that a "liberal arts education" and "humanities" are the same thing. At many schools, everybody, including pre-med science majors, get a liberal arts education. Does this make them better scientists and doctors than they would be if they took only science courses? I don't know how you prove it, but I think so.</p>
<p>Cellardweller,</p>
<p>The day is fast approaching when a physician in India will be able to review and diagnose patients remotely. A PA or nurse in the US will do the workup, technicians will do the imaging and labs, the remote doctor will make the diagnostic call and prescribe treatment. </p>
<p>Alternately the patient will fly to India for a bypass. That is an Indian national goal and they are investing to achieve it.</p>
<p>Liberal education is the vanity of an affluent society or social class.The legal profession has become the dumping ground for the moderately intelligent liberally educated individuals. The US trains more lawyers than engineers or doctors. The cost of legal services has not declined but the average income of lawyers has.</p>
<p>Maybe years from now someone will be making a movie that is similar to "Slumdog Millionaire" but the only difference is that it's filmed in USA.</p>
<p>
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The day is fast approaching when a physician in India will be able to review and diagnose patients remotely.
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<p>Technical ability and legal right to practice are two very different issues. State laws require the physician providing the reading service to be licensed in that State. That is why teleradiology from outside the US is not really a viable business. </p>
<p>The reverse is actually a thriving business. Top US medical facilities such as the Mayo Clinic, the Cleveland Clinic, Memorial Sloan Kettering, MGH and others cashing in on their worldwide reputation to market their medical services overseas. </p>
<p>As far as having your cardiac bypass done in India, it is not viable business proposition either unless you pay out of pocket, as no insurance company will cover the procedure. It is one thing to consider having elective plastic surgery done in a third world country to save a buck, quite another to have heart surgery. Good luck to India what that plan!</p>
<p>If I was premed I wouldn't be too worried. There is already a shortage of physicians and medical schools are increasing their enrollments to meet the shortfall after all the baby-boomer physicians start retiring.</p>
<p>A rather fun discussion.</p>
<p>My son is taking Foundations of Computer Science. I took a grad course when he was 3 years old called Computer Language Theory which covered similar material. One thing that you learn is the relationship between language and math, in a particularly theoretical way of course. For me, it was a kind of magic. It is for him right now too.</p>
<p>There is so much learned in science, engineering and math programs that I find it hard to believe that those majors don't learn how to think. You have to think inside and outside the box in these majors and you probably have to take a core with some humanities, social science and ethics/diversity courses.</p>
<p>On it being cheaper in India and China: we could just devalue our currency. There are downsides to outsourcing too.</p>
<p>I think that because our world has "shrunk" that the "humanities" will be more important than ever- effective communication, multi-lingual, cultural studies have never been more important. You can have all the technology in the world but you need people to teach it, to write the books, you need people working together across borders who understand one another both in language and culture. I don't think one can exist without the other.</p>
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Nobody goes to college in the UK, France, Germany or Japan simply to learn "how to think". That is generally the function played by secondary education not universities.
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<p>Excellent point. Why is it that only American students need to go to college to learn "how to think"?</p>
<p>College attendance in foreign countries is limited to kids who already "know how to think". The American ideal of every one going to college is unknown. Only kids who can pass tough exams get into college at all.</p>
<p>"Why is it that only American students need to go to college to learn "how to think"?</p>
<p>Because our best high schools have trained them how not to. ;)</p>
<p>^^ LOL! Sad, but in many cases, this is unfortunately true!</p>
<p>The creative arts have always depended upon the patronage of those with resources. Who is willing to subsidize the arts, what types of expression are encouraged, with what goal are they being supported, and with how much money is something that has fluctuated throughout history. I don't see cause for alarm there.</p>
<p>As for the "liberal arts" or "humanities," I don't think they need to justify their inherent worth, but maybe their monetary value within a strict economic cost-benefits framework. My liberal arts degree was only useful financially in the sense that I had the required minimum education, and to the extent it was combined with other marketable skills which I acquired apart from my formal schooling. Therefore, I am encouraging my children to major in something practical to feed their bodies, but then pursue a second major or minor to feed their souls.</p>
<p>"Excellent point. Why is it that only American students need to go to college to learn "how to think"? "</p>
<p>they shouldn't have to..that is not what I believe college is about. I guess some kids have to find themselves, but many kids are already very comfortable with who they are and don't need the foo foo crap.</p>
<p>geeps20 Actually, this was not the point I was trying to make. I believe American students should be "taught to think" in high school, not college. Critical thinking is definitely not "foo foo crap" and has nothing to do with students "finding themselves."</p>
<p>The ability to analyze and make a coherent argument, supported by a strong background in history, literature, and science is essential for any profession. High school should be the place where students learn to question authority, society, and everything they think they "know." I just happen to think it's so basic and important that it should not be left until college.</p>
<p>Not everything should be subject to a cost-benefit analysis. That is why our infrastructure is in such sorry shape, we have no well-developed high-speed rail system, and recycling/new energy sources are woefully behind. There is not immediate financial benefit to repairing a road or bridge, so we don't do it. Even when a bridge collapses and people are killed does anyone look askance at the decision. Although no one will say it, the c/b analysis there was actually done, and the "benefit" of not doing the repairs clearly won out of the "cost" of the dead and injured. </p>
<p>The same is true of education. If you want to subject education to a c/b analysis, everyone should focus on a trade. But as many posters have pointed out, a broader education (whether you call it liberal arts/humanities/not working in the field of your degree) has inherent value in the work world, especially to the student who may not know what he or she wants to do or wants a well-rounded education. I believe universities have the obligation to produce all the of the disciplines. We may need more engineers and business people than philosophers or musicians, but that does not mean the programs are expendable, it means they are smaller. </p>
<p>European students generally get their "liberal arts" education in h.s. Philosophy is a required discipline. Students who are going into the humanities still have to study advanced math (talking calculus/differential equations/etc) in hs. They do learn how to analyze and think in h.s. Our students generally do little of this. Only the best and brightest might make it to calculus in a U.S. h.s. In our local h.s., pre-calculus is a 5th year of math.</p>
<p>*&^% dial up
I lost my earlier post
But what I wanted to say is IMO, college is all about the "foo"</p>
<p>Having self esteem at 18 is all well and good but many do not- although they certainly may be comfortable with certain areas of their life- some may even be arrogant about it- but I have found that " the know-it alls" are actually the ones that are most insecure, because it is too * frightening* to admit even to themselves that they don't know everything.</p>
<p>( I also have met many who profess to be happy with themselves just the way they are, but as they seemed to be totally lacking in self awareness, not to mention awareness of the world around them, I don't take that as a thundering endorsement.)</p>
<p>To grow- you need to explore those things that are difficult, those things that are scary.
It might feel safe to pursue studies that seemed aligned to developing job skills, but even if you are in a vocational/technical program, the skills you will need on the job- and in your career are not things that were on the syllabus.</p>
<p>An entry level job you can get without a degree- and that is what most college grads will start with, but exposure to ideas and minds that you cannot get on your own, can give you the tools to put the bits of seemingly unrelated pieces of information together.</p>
<p>Bill Gates had a humanities based education in high school- ( he of course did not graduate from college)
Steve Jobs of course, doesn't have a college degree either- but at the commencement address at Stanford in 2005 he had this to say about his time @ college.
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...And much of what I stumbled into by following my curiosity and intuition turned out to be priceless later on. Let me give you one example:</p>
<p>Reed College at that time offered perhaps the best calligraphy instruction in the country. Throughout the campus every poster, every label on every drawer, was beautifully hand calligraphed. Because I had dropped out and didn't have to take the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif and san serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture, and I found it fascinating.</p>
<p>None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But ten years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography. If I had never dropped in on that single course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts. And since Windows just copied the Mac ;) , its likely that no personal computer would have them. If I had never dropped out, I would have never dropped in on this calligraphy class, and personal computers might not have the wonderful typography that they do. Of course it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards ten years later.</p>
<p>Again, you can't connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something — your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach has never let me down, and it has made all the difference in my life.
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<p>Interestingly enough, what are the kinds of people that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs like to hire?</p>
<p>Sorry, my liberal arts education was not "foo foo crap"; I didn't need to go to college to find myself, and my professional work has paid off for all my various employers over time despite the years of non-vocational education I received. Or because of it. Who knows. My company would hire a smart philosophy major over a marketing major any day of the week (and we do- we recruit at Williams, Amherst, Yale, etc. none of whom have an undergrad business major).</p>
<p>I am first generation American; many cousins still back in Europe. It is interesting to see how much disdain so many of you have for the American system when my European relatives would pay an arm and a leg for an American college education. How many promising cancer researchers are now cutting hair because they were tracked into a vo-tech program in adolescence instead of going to university?</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, what are the kinds of people that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs like to hir</p>
<p>Three members of my family have worked for microsoft, while they all have computer experience- none have had a degree in the computer sciences and only one has taken college ( community) courses re: computing.</p>
<p>I also know someone who retired from MS long time ago( 10 years- lol)- when she was in her 30's, her degree is from Evergreen state college! They don't even have majors let alone engineering programs.</p>
<p>( however- I do admit she was originally admitted to Cornell- but decided she wanted to attend college on the left coast)</p>
<p>Things were like that at DEC many years ago. They went into a death spiral and were bought out. I work for a company similar to Microsoft and have worked with Microsoft senior managers. I know what they're looking for in engineers.</p>
<p>Oh I wasn't speaking of engineers- my daughter was a tech writer- I don't know exactly all the other job titles-
Yes if you are looking for an engineering job, then you should have engineering experience/background</p>