Independent Research

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
41

<p>Not necessarily. The point is that you can do a project without understanding why you're doing it. My PI comes around every couple of weeks and gives me a list of mutations he wants me to make. I can make the mutations, take the TEV readings, get results, and publish, all without knowing why he chose those specific amino acids to mutate out of the 4500+ amino acids in the protein. </p>

<p>This is why when I have time I ask him questions or read papers so I can understand why I'm doing what I'm doing.</p>

42

<p>norcalguy: But if you're a first author, don't you need to do everything by yourself, without your PI telling you anything like a list of mutations to make? Can your PI tell you things to do even if you're working on your own independent project all by yourself and you're going to publish as first author?</p>

43

<p>First author means you do most of the work. Last author is reserved for the PI.</p>

44

<p>Also keep in mind that even if you are doing most of your own independent work, whether or not you publish and the position of your authorship on the paper is virtually never your decision. All such decisions are made by the PI.</p>

45

<p>^^^Very true. A lot of politics goes on behind the scenes. My lab has produced publications where some of the authors don't even work in the lab or the US for that matter.</p>

46

<p>I started volunteering in a lab this Monday. It's decided that I'll be working 15 hours per week. On the first day, I was assigned to two grad students, each of whom is going to take turns to teach me basic lab techniques and telling me what to do.
As expected, I'm only doing grunt work since my first day. Not necessarily cleaning beakers, because this lab doesn't use beakers that much, but nobrainer work nonetheless. It's just in a different form: preparing food (bacteria) for C. elegans, the model organism of this lab. I hope I'll move up the research food chain quickly and start doing intellectual work sooner.
Anyway, during volunteering in the lab, I have many questions that pop up, but I hesitate to ask them to the grad students responsible for training me. They're not very nice or friendly and they're hard to approach; in consequence, I'm forced to repress my desire to quench my curiosity. I feel they're going to eat me if they think my question is stupid. I'm aware that being afraid to ask questions is one of the biggest handicaps, but I just can't help it.
Also, there are quite a few volunteers in the lab; I have a feeling that they're treating me as just another volunteer, not as an individual. I don't feel much valued or welcomed. Is this how volunteers are usually treated? So far, I don't like the lab atmosphere that much. :( Any advice?</p>

47

<p>It really boils down to your PI and the culture of your lab (no pun intended).</p>

<p>I've been at both ends of the spectrum - really good and really bad. I've been just another set of hands with no serious thought involved, and it was easily the worst research experience I've ever had. It sounds a lot like what you're doing now, and I shudder to recall it. I don't think there was anything I could do about it other than leave the lab.</p>

<p>Sorry, that's probably not very helpful. :( All I can say is to stick it out a little longer. Try to show you're responsible. Keep thinking and asking questions, even if it makes you uncomfortable. If you just shut up and shut down, what's the incentive to give you more interesting stuff to do?</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

48

<p>YSK1,</p>

<p>If this is your very first exposure to research experience, it's OK to start at the bottom rung in the lab ladder. However, once you have had a few months experience in growing C elegans, I suggest you chat with your PI. Make time to sit down and discuss your long term goals with him/her.</p>

<p>If your PI is understanding, they will explain to you what sort of progression they have in mind for you. PIs generally tend to have their own unwritten set of rules for progression within their labs. They should however, keep you aware of their expectations and understand your expectations as well.</p>

<p>If discussing your dreams with your PI leads you nowhere, then look around in other labs. There are plenty of researchers out there to choose from.</p>

<p>What I used to find helpful was to chat with senior/graduating Grad students or Postdocs prior to selecting a PI. Graduating Grad students are happy to point out who is good to work with and has grant moneys to support etc. They also do not see you as a competitor. </p>

<p>Keep your chin up. Don't let anything or anyone get you down from achieving your goals!</p>

49

<p>to be blunt, if you've only been there less than a week you a really are just another volunteer and frankly are most likely more trouble than you're worth at this point. your focus should be on doing what you're told and learning new techniques rather than 'moving up the research food chain.'</p>

<p>Of course, if you're still doing the same stuff about three months from now or so, then I'd become concerned. Since the lab is not paying you, they should feel some responsibility to see that you get something out of your experience. At this point in time, that something is basic laboratory techniques. Once they feel you have those well in hand, however, you should be given more advanced things to do.</p>

50

<p>Thanks for your advice, shades_children, Pharmagal, and phillySASer08!</p>

<p>As phillySASer08 pointed out, the best thing for me to do, for now, would be to just focus on and become satisfied with learning and mastering basic lab techniques.
I think the grad students are actually nicer and more considerate than I initially thought. It may be that I'm just too sensitive sometimes. Also, I don't often see PI around in the lab. Even if he comes in and sees me, he is indifferent of me. Anyway, thanks again for the help, guys.</p>

51

<p>"I don't often see PI around in the lab. Even if he comes in and we see each other, he is indifferent of me."</p>

<p>This is fairly typical unless you get a PI who's an exceptional mentor. My PI usually just lets me be. If I want to discuss my results or improvements to my experiments, he's happy to but otherwise I'm on my own.</p>

52

<p>Now it's been almost two months, ~100 hours (15 hours per week), since I first started volunteering in a lab. I'm unhappy with my experiences so far. What's weird is that, even though I'm the only volunteer in this lab who puts in as many as 15 hours to volunteering and I keep being consistent and hardworking, I'm given same types of work as other volunteers who volunteer less than 7 hours per week; the "research work" I've been doing was only grunt work. I'm starting to feel that it's not worthwhile to devote this much time to this because I'm getting nowhere. I'm aware that it's common for undergrad volunteers to do a lot of these grunt work (entering data, programming, pipetting, wet lab work, etc.) as part of a research team, but I doubt that the current lab's grad students or PI (who is indifferent of me, and doesn't even seem to or care to know who I am) will starting giving me intellectual, publishable work to do. Would it be better to decrease my volunteer hours to less than 7 because volunteering many hours like 15 doesn't make much difference?</p>

53

<p>What is the difference b/w the work you're doing and the work the grad students are doing?</p>

54

<p>I can't really say, because the grad students never told me about what work they do daily. Several times during volunteering in the lab, I got curious about it, but I was too afraid to ask them about it. :(</p>

55

<p>If the people in the lab with you really are that unwilling to help you, I personally think you should go for a different lab. There's no reason that you have to waste valuable time being miserable. I'm actually exactly where you are, roughly two months into my first volunteering research position. My PI always works with me one on one, she explains what we're doing and why we're doing it, and we are working towards a practical, publishable goal.</p>

<p>I think the great thing about this lab is that there are just a couple volunteers.. probably just myself and one other are working under my PI. If you really don't like what you're doing, I would check out some other labs, if there are any at your school. Hopefully the PI will show you around the lab so you can get an idea of the culture (once again, no pun intended), and see if its right for you.</p>

56

<p>First, it doesn't particularly sound like you're being given grunt work. It sounds like you don't like research. Entering data? Pipetting? Everybody does this, from grad students to post-docs to associate scientists. </p>

<p>Second, two months is chump change. For comparison, young lawyers really are expected to do grunt work for years on end before advancing. Medical students are doing "grunt work" throughout their training, possibly upwards of nine years.</p>

<p>Third, it's ridiculous -- ridiculous -- to complain about what you're doing despite having no idea what anybody else is doing because you're afraid to ask! How on earth can you be afraid to ask -- or too oblivious to at least notice -- what they're doing? And how on earth can you feel justified about complaining if you don't know?</p>

<p>Fourth, if you want more responsibility, take it on. Ask to read papers related to the project. Read them. Understand them. Ask questions. Suggest new directions for the experiments you're doing. Ask what the experiments are geared towards. Figure out what's happening.</p>

<p>If you're incapable of doing this -- and most undergrads will be -- then that's why you're not participating in experimental design. Learn.</p>

<hr>

<p>Be faithful with small things, and gradually -- GRADUALLY -- you'll be entrusted with larger ones.</p>

<p>Patience is a valued workplace asset.</p>

<p>If you want more responsibility, prove that you're capable of dealing with it.</p>

<p>If you're not yet capable of dealing with it, it is only responsible to recognize and accept your limits.</p>

<p>Constantly angling for the perks of the job -- in this case, publication -- undermines people's trust in you and makes you a worse employee.</p>

<p>The accomplishments of the individual -- boosting your resume -- follow the accomplishments of the team -- making scientific progress.</p>

<p>Jobs go to the person who's behaving -- and speaking -- the most responsibly, whether or not other people are more talented, better educated, or putting in more hours.</p>

57

<p>I agree with jake and bdm. Some mentors are better than others. So if you do not like your current lab, then perhaps a change is in order.</p>

<p>At the same time, understand that what you are doing is research. I have spent almost the entire last two weeks (I work full time so that is around 50 hours a week) doing data input, analysis, and Excel work. It was approx. 2 1/2 months (at 50 hours/week) before I even started to generate data. I go through 2-3 boxes of pipet tips a week. Heck, we do so much pipetting in the lab, we actually hire someone to come around every few months to do a 12-pt inspection/calibration of the pipets in the lab. If you don't like research, then make better use of your time and do something else.</p>

<p>Research demands patience, ability to deal with frustration, and the stamina to sustain repetitive work over long periods of time. For those of you wondering why med schools want to see research, is it cuz they want to see you get pubs? No. It's because they want you to develop that patience, to develop coping skills, and to develop stamina. It'll be handy when you're in med school and residency.</p>

58

<p>YSK1,</p>

<p>May be it's the gruelling, laborious lab oriented research you don't like. If yes, then look into other kinds of research such as Clinical Research (which involves more interaction with patients in clinics) or Epidemilogy (Public health area). Not everyone is cut out for Biochem, Molecular, or Cellular work. </p>

<p>It helps to do a rotation in different labs before you decide what kinds of research and PIs you like/don't like.</p>