<p>"the article does an excellent job at quantifying some aspects of the branding power that comes with USNWR rankings."</p>
<p>That being said, you have to wonder how strong the USNWR branding power would be if it flew in the face of conventional wisdom. Thus far, it hasn't really shocked anyone -- I mean, Penn has risen in the rankings, but never in a way that's violated people's core beliefs about the Penn brand. But let's say USNWR threw HYP out of the top ten* next year. Would the rankings retain their current level of persuasion? Or are the HYP brands so strong that such a list would just cause people to de-value the rankings? </p>
<p>*which won't happen because one of the authors of the rankings said he checks each year's formula by making sure it puts HYP, in some order, as the top 3 comprehensive universities.</p>
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If we find ourselves in the enviable position that Midmo did with an option of sending our D to a top school virtually free vs. spending $200k to send her to a school with marginally more prestige we will not hesitate to make the intelligent decision.
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We found that the full tuition offers (not including room and board, by the way, so not $200K) were from wonderful schools, that were more than marginally removed from the prestige schools. Stories abound about the student who gets a full ride (which seldom includes room and board) to some elite school. The reality is that the majority of the selective/elite schools are need-based financial aid only. The choice to turn down an Ivy usually does not result in a free ride at a similar school. Of course, that's not to say that an excellent education can not be gained at a "non-elite" school, but I just wanted to point out that the comparison is not apples to apples.</p>
<p>The examples I remember from CC are Yale vs. Vanderbilt (a wonderful school of course) and Yale vs. a lesser known LAC. There are good reasons for making that choice -- I'm not trying to turn this into another "are the Ivy's worth it" thread.</p>
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Apparently getting into Prestige U. is not the life or death thing that some students or their parents think it is. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, prestige rankings are so hyped in the media — especially by U.S. News & World Report magazine — that many people think that is how to choose a college. </p>
<p>What you really want is not the "best" college but the college that fits you best. For that, you need in-depth information, not statistical rankings. For such information, you could start looking up colleges in the 900-page guide, "Choosing the Right College." After that, campus visits would be in order.
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The reality is that the majority of the selective/elite schools are need-based financial aid only.
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<p>In fact, looking only at the USNWR top-20 university list, the picture is not quite that cut and dried. Of the top 10, 7 are need-only while 3 include merit scholarships; of the top 20, 11 are need-only and 9 offer a range of merit scholarships.</p>
<p>Yes, the "full tuition plus fees plus stuff" awards are very difficult to get, but for those students who are competitive for admission to HYPMS, they are quite feasible. If we include half tuition offers--which are a considerable boost for full-pay families--then it becomes clear there are some options available for many top students of full-pay families, if they wish to consider schools just a bit outside their normal wish list.</p>
<p>The full merit award at Vanderbilt, when added to their relatively small NMF stipend, is about 40K per year. There is some room and board in addition to that. The difference between that and full pay at the need-only schools that "rank" slightly higher is quite considerable. Some families may feel the difference is worth it, while some do not. </p>
<p>I do feel it is unfortunate that many families do not take the time to consider the schools that offer merit scholarships. I know how they feel because our family came very close to ignoring them; fortunately our son is a real penny pincher and on his own put together a list that included only one non-merit school. </p>
<p>A few weeks back, I had a pm exchange with a student who had made a choice between two Top 20 schools in favor of the higher ranking college (by three spots). She now regrets the influence that the ranking played in her decision-making, but she is happy with her college so, in her case, all’s well that ends well. But the interesting thing to me, which this study ratifies, was the acceptance of USNWR’s hierarchical rankings and how they could play such an outsized role in the college selection of even the strongest applicants. </p>
<p>In reading the study, I took away the fact that some students will often lean, even among very highly ranked schools, to a school mainly because it has a higher USNWR ranking and not necessarily because it is the better individual fit. The allure and the power behind the brand of HYP is unmistakable and truly resonates throughout the entire USA, but this study indicates that the ranking level and the accompanying status that goes with this also extends down the ranking. Maybe the USNWR rankings are creating a new “Revealed Preference” order. </p>
<p>Re the issue of merit money and top colleges, I would suggest that the Ivies will respond only if they need to, ie, if they start losing significant numbers of top students to other merit-offering schools. God knows the Ivies have the financial wherewithal to respond, but their admission applications, quality, and yields have probably not been sufficiently impacted to necessitate a wholesale change in their financial cartel. And frankly, given the results of this study and their historical brand power, as long as the Ivies can maintain their lofty rankings, there will not be any need to change.</p>
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In reading the study, I took away the fact that some students will often lean, even among very highly ranked schools, to a school mainly because it has a higher USNWR ranking and not necessarily because it is the better individual fit.
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From my reading these authors have only established a correlation, not causation. They surveyed admitted students about college preferences, and then found that they tracked closely with rankings. The students may have been entirely unaware of the rankings - and ranking information was not in the survey. There may be some component in the ranking algorithm that is an effective measure of "revealed preferences", such that it is a good reporter of (and not creator of) students' choices.</p>
<p>Sjmom, you are right. My kids did not get anything close to full ride offers. In fact my oldest got a sports scholarship combined with a merit award but it was to a school that was not anywhere near his matches. It was a true safety. Even then the award was about a third of the cost, but the sticker price was a bit lower than most private schools. He still would have done better at an instate public uni both in terms of ratings, academic rep, stats and cost.
Other son's top award was only $5k. Again the state school won out price wise even with no award. </p>
<p>However, I do know some girls who got some very nice sports scholarships at schools not too far removed from their idea. And I am hoping that my third son get enough in merit money because of his reasonably high SAT scores. His grades are not commensurate, unfortunately. </p>
<p>There was a NYTimes article of one young lady who was a top student who did go for all the top merit awards such as at Emory, UNC Chapel Hill, Pitt, UArizona, etc. She did get some. But she also got into some of the very top schools in the country. From what I read, to get any of these very top merit awards, the student does have to be way up there int stats and extras. There are few kids who will turn down certain schools for a less expensive option when the gap is too great. However, some of the state honor programs are gaining ground. I was surprised that some friends we know who could afford any school ended up with that choice for their only child. THey and that includes the student, felt that state U was the best overall deal, and since he wants to go to med school, he did not want to spend a fortune on undergrad. He is in med school today, and will have a nice start financially compared to my friend who paid for two Harvard educations. They are truly struggling financially now, as costs did end up rising, and one student is now in med school. </p>
<p>As for fit, if you have a flexible child, it is not such an issue. But some of us do have kids where fit could make a tremendous difference. IT can be very rough at college if the fit is not right. Fortunately, my son does not seem to be swayed by ratings as much as fit, as I think he would do much better at certain types of schools. </p>
<p>One rating I do like to check is the Princeton Review's student satisfaction rating. I know it is flawed but it does give an idea of how students perceive the school, and I find it is pretty accurate despite the bias within the report.</p>
<p>We are same with, mathmom, where the expertise of study is more important. </p>
<p>Mammall's, comment is also very true. The ability to pay allows the student to make the "intelligent choice." The inverse, the inability-to-pay makes the student to make a different "intelligent choice." </p>
<p>There are other considerations that our son took into account based on airline connections, distance from home, national geographic location. (PDX to Colgate is not a travel that I would like for 4 years whereas the flight from PDX to PITT is easy) </p>
<p>The ability and sophistication of previous, pre admittance, and post admittance data used by admission people is simply elegant. after-all, what do university mathematicians, psychologists, economists do besides teaching-they should be optimizing the student/income ratio!</p>
<p>thisoldman, the point I was trying to make above is that an "intelligent choice" requires doing some homework and making the effort to investigate--physically, intellectually and emotionally--all of the options. I simply do not believe that all of the people who insist that only top-ranked (in many cases non-merit) schools are the only schools that "fit" their needs have actually looked into the programs and opportunities available at some other schools.</p>
<p>In fact, several of my friends and acquaintances told me in May that they had made a big mistake not looking at merit-awarding schools when helping their kids make out their lists. These are kids who function at the very top, and they were accepted into top schools, but the reality of the money situation did not register on time. They can pay with enough sacrifices, and they will pay, but after the fact, they wish they had been more broad-minded about their search. Of course, it is likely that some would have made the same choice after checking out all of the options.</p>
<p>^ I do not disagree. And am very much in agreement. </p>
<p>The problem that students and parents have, is that one doesn't know how much merit aid will be awarded and will merit aid be a deciding factor. For us, we were fullpay, but merit aid did become a factor in the decision- accepting a 50% tuition scholarship or a 0% scholarship. We went back to the latter school and showed them the 50% offer, and they came back with a 17% offer. Both schools were high COA and reputations. He made the intelligent decision. </p>
<p>The prospective of merit aid is vastly different from different prospectives.</p>
<p>My senior is essentially taking a three-pronged approach right now -- applying to the super elites, applying to all top 20s that offer substantial merit, applying to strong publics that offer merit. In the spring she will look over her options and decide. CC has managed to convince me that she will be turned down by the super elites despite her "peak" scores on the SAT, ACT, APs and SAT subjects so I am glad that she is pursuing the other two categories of schools. Even if she just ends up at a strong public honors college (three have already offered her full tuition and nominated her for larger scholarships) then I think she won't be slashing her wrists in the spring. But through all of this I have been very conscious of how hard it is to withstand the incredible mania surrounding the super elites. Group mind. It's very, very hard when your child is an exceptional scholar to resist being totally sucked into that mind set. Like cpt, we have friends who have gone for it and after paying full freight at H and S are now looking at medical and law school costs. They are good earners -- physicians -- who have tapped out their home equity and don't see retirement as a possibility. So I'm hoping my D gets accepted to a few of the super elites so that she never looks back in disappointment. But I'm also hoping she makes the fiscally intelligent choice. We will let her decide, though. She's smarter than we are and if she gets into a super elite and tells us it's worth it, we'll cross our fingers and write the check.</p>
<p>mamall - we had a similar approach but less weighted on super elites. My son was a very strong student with excellent scores, GPA and good ECs but he went to a ultra competitive hs and he clearly wasn't in the "elite" group there (ranked only in top 10% not the precious few at the top). He applied to one ivy and one very selective OOS public - his top two choices - and was rejected at both. If he was accepted at either of these schools, our retirement would likely be delayed for a few years! As it was, he had the choice of a few top 30 privates compared to his top 50 State U honors college. We had lots of merit offers, but the combination of in-state tuition and multiple scholarships made the state U very compelling. He went with state U and has $ for study abroad and post graduation. He didn't seem concerned that the State U was ranked below his private school choices. </p>
<p>Even so, I wonder sometimes if we "polluted" his decision by bringing cost into the equation. Would he have chosen differently if we have a "cost is not a factor" philosophy? Was the prospect of having extra dollars after graduation too appealing for him to pass up? He is happy where he is, but would the fit have been better somewhere else? </p>
<p>Lastly, peer pressure seems to be a factor for both students and parents. Our neighbors tend to have kids in expensive private colleges, and many seem to be puzzled by our State U choice. We've actually been asked "Why would you send ___ to State U - he's such an excellent student." It's easy to get sucked in...</p>
LOL. I don't have to wonder. She specifically asked "If I take this scholarship will you pay what you would have paid for UG on Med School?" It was her idea. Her math.</p>
<p>I hear you curmudge. But bringing cost into the equation seems to be rare in my community. I had one neighbor tell me that she was proud that her child was able to make a "pure" decision - not influenced by cash. I think I'm living in "la-la land" over here...</p>
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I had one neighbor tell me that she was proud that her child was able to make a "pure" decision - not influenced by cash.
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<p>Since my H and I don't come from a world where such purity has ever been possible, I guess it is just as well that our S figured out on his own that money always matters--for someone. </p>
<p>The fact that this thread has veered toward the money aspect of the decision, not simply the "rank" question, is an indication that money does matter. I initially jumped in, though, because my son's experience was an example of how a merit offer led him to investigate more closely a school that didn't initially appeal to him; when he made the effort to find out what it had to offer, he came to the conclusion that it was the best overall place for him to be, once all the different factors were taken into account. I think others would make the same discovery about "lower ranked" schools if they really looked into them. (I'm not patting myself on the back here; this was a self-help project on my son's part.)</p>
<p>The rankings had little or no impact on our S1. He was interested in ivies until he visited with a friend who attended. He no longer had interest. He then decided to apply to top LAC's and some other not as well known but still highly ranked, just not top 20 schools.</p>
<p>When he saw the cost of one school at nearly $50,000 for his freshman year, because getting in off the waitlist there was no financial aid, he didn't have to think twice about his outstanding merit offers elsewhere.</p>
<p>As others have previously mentioned, most merit scholarships are not a full ride. We have about 1/4 of the tuition to pay plus room and board. S1 has taken a work/study to help with tuition and is using his summer earnings for books and spending money. He should graduate with no loans, which is good because he plans on attending medical school.</p>
<p>There are opportunities out there for a full ride at some schools. My neice attended Xavier for free. She received a merit scholarship for full tuition and some sort of named scholarship for room, board and expenses. Her parents offered to pay for a big name university for her, instead they are helping with graduate school.</p>
<p>S2 does not care about rankings at all. He wanted a small school in the midwest. He is in several with nice merit money. So, there are many kids and parents out there who look at the rankings but do not make them a serious part of the decision process.</p>
<p>While your first part of your sentence maybe correct for those who are admitted to Colgate, the bolded segment = facts not in evidence. The authors did not seek nor report on "fit."</p>
<p>As I understood the study, the conclusion is that some decisions were made based heavily on the ranking position of the college. </p>
<p>"…the effect is much larger for full-pays, where rank differences in the Top 20 are related to a .45 percentage point change…wealthier students place more emphasis on the prestige, quality, physical plant and other unchanging characteristics…the magnitude of the fixed effect declines as the rank of the school declines…."</p>
<p>While no explicit mention was made of fit, I interpreted their work to mean that college choices were being made more based on individual and relative college USNWR rank and not other factors. In fact, I think that is one of their primary conclusions is that rank is a powerful factor in how some students make their college choices and has the potential to crowd out other considerations. </p>
<p>I'll be curious to hear others' interpretations as perhaps I have incorrectly understood the findings and the analysis.</p>
<p>hawkette-- I believe what blue meant was that the authors did not try to quantify or model "fit" in their analysis, so there can be no conclusions drawn on "fit" itself, not disputing that rank DOES matter, relative to the other variables modeled. Those variables I believe are mentioned on table 2, and include such things as student-faculty ratio, minority status, distance from home, net cost, and SAT quartile. I believe the holy grail for future analyses along these lines would be quantify "fit" (but how does one do that?) and model its correlation to yield, as the authors have done for rank and the other variables....but until that time comes, we can only conclude rank is important but the jury's still out on "fit."</p>