Inside Higher Ed: "Not Missing the SAT"

Parent Cafe
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<p>Interesting article in Inside Higher ed about SAT-optional admissions policies. Inside Higher Ed posed the question to a highly engaged standing room only audience at the annual meeting of the National Association for College Admission Counseling: "How many of you are here because your college currently requires the SAT and you are thinking of ending the requirement?"</p>

<p>Basic answer (article quotes admissions deans from Bates, Drew, and Franklin and Marshall) is that getting along without the SAT is seen to be a beneficial move: "the admissions deans who had already undergone the switch said without exception that it had been a positive one. They reported that they had used the shift to rethink admissions more broadly, to attract more and more-diverse students, and to engage faculty members in the process." </p>

<p>"Not everyone who attended the session was ready to go SAT-optional. Vince Cuseo, dean of admission at Occidental College, said he sees the test — used properly — as a good way to deal with rampant grade inflation and “the wide variety” of standards in high schools. Occidental applicants attend urban public high schools and elite prep schools, he said, and the SAT helps admissions officers evaluate grades from very different kinds of institutions.</p>

<p>At the same time, he said he thought it was “incumbent” on colleges to be sure that they regularly test the value of the SAT to their admissions processes, to make sure that the “value added” is real."</p>

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<p>The problem is that if they do away with the SAT and ACT and there is no other standardized test that is an application requirement, colleges, especially the selective ones rae going to be in a quandry as to who to accept. The reason is that high schools all throughout the country grade differently. Some grade on a 4.0 scale, some on a 5.0 scale, some on a 100 scale. Some convert a 90 before it is weighted to an A or 4.0 and then turn it into a weighted 5.0 if it is an AP course, or a weighted 4.5 if it is an honors course. At other schools a student could earn the same 90 and they grade on a 100 point scale and the 90 would become a 95 if it is an honors course, or a 100 if it is an AP course. You could have two students with the same grades in every single class and one can therefore graduate with a 99 which is less than a 4.0, but the other student could graduate with a 5.3.
It is even difficult to look at class rank as an indicator as some high schools allow for 6-10 valivictorians, and some only one. At some schools the additional points given to those who take honors and AP courses ensure that they are ranked above those who do not take them, at other high schools, they grade differently and students who do not take the rigorous curriculum could be ranked higher than those who do.
While colleges might understand the grading at a particular school, and what it means to earn a particular grade there, they may not understand that at high schools they are not that familiar with and where few have applied.
Standardized tests particularly the SAT while I agree not a true indicator of success in college, has been used by colleges as some means to give some type of understanding to the academic record.
I cannot imagine selective colleges doing away with the SAT unless they come up with some type of standardized test that can distinguish between applicants.</p>

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<p>I've posted elsewhere my ideas for alternative ways to assess strength/challenge/substance of the high school program (much beyond grades), so I won't repeat myself here. I'll just say that I remain convinced, from the varieties of SAT experiences with a variety of students, capabilities, etc. posted on CC and in my experience as educator & parent, that the SAT test is a poor tool for measuring achievement & promise, including as a measurement tool <em>against</em> the GPA specifically. Even CB admits that. </p>

<p>There's also a lot of faulty reasoning behind the standard comment such as the Occidental person said. Sure, for grade-inflated high schools, an extremely strong SAT may serve to verify the integrity of high grades, but what about the opposite? What about schools NOT grade-inflated, in fact deflated? What about schools such as my D's & such as some CC students have described, in which it is extremely difficult to get straight A's because ALL the classes are tough, & rare is the person who is equally capable across all subject areas & skill sets?</p>

<p>The argument is sometimes made that the SAT is helpful against the poorly performing schools which a college may otherwise dismiss or overlook as having a poor or unknown reputation. Again, the problem is that economics can play a factor in SAT results. Such a student may be affected by a poorly performing GC, poorly performing parents, & a poorly performing family wallet with which to acquire additional SAT prep.</p>

<p>Independent verification of the quality of a student's work is possible for the creative and the willing. SAT is just a lazy and VERY unscientific way out for the colleges, i.m.o.</p>

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<p>Just presume everyone is above average, since some can also argue that grades in high school are irrelevant for many kids: "Johnny doesn't test well"<br>
or "Sally has Slow Reading Disability" or the latest fad</p>

<p>Add to this that there is no way that a college would know whether a student wrote his/her essay and that recommendations can often be meaningless rubber stamps.. then what measurement stick are colleges supposed to use?</p>

<p>Using this new age logic, maybe a lottery system for admission to highly selective colleges would be the best idea</p>

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<p>Citation, plenty of us have suggested verifiable alternate ways to analyze value of a particular GPA outside of the SAT. Some of these methods include in-class work, submitted to teachers, sent directly by teachers to colleges. There are a variety of options not easily subject to corruption. </p>

<p>You show your ignorance of the validity of measured (<em>tested</em>) actual learning disability in your equation of this with a "fad." I suggest you get some education regarding this, & the above paragraph. There's a search feature on CC. As to the "excuse" part, btw, just FYI -- the qualifications for SAT Accommodation are so high (one might even say extreme) as to be quite difficult for most students, even most measured, tested LD students to meet. Even Collegeboard regularly dismisses & denies accommodation to students who have produced the CB's own required paperwork, when that paperwork meets the very standards CB sets out. (In other words, they're liars, & their Accommodation information is not to be trusted on its face.)</p>

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<p>epiphany, I'm not convinced. In-class work submitted to a teacher is only as good as what the teacher assigned and taught. The standardized tests are far from the be-all and the end-all, but they do provide some basis for comparing apples with oranges (and of course now they include actual "in class" writing samples). As problematic as the SATs are, they are still probably the best way to identify kids from crappy schools with crappy preparation that have a large potential to learn in college, and also to identify kids who have lots of awards and trimmings but some learning issues, too.</p>

<p>It's never going to be possible to equalize the advantaged and the disadvantaged -- that's what "advantages" mean, in the end. My impression is that the SAT-optional schools are effectively marketing to an "advantaged" population that doesn't test well, but has lots of other ways to show what great, smart kids they are. Nothing wrong with that, by the way -- those kids, and kids who simply feel a lot of anxiety about the tests, should get to go to colleges they like, too. But I wouldn't want to see every college do that, because in the end non-SAT criteria are probably even more susceptible to coaching and wealth-based advantage than the SAT is.</p>

<p>(Re: accommodation. I have a niece who got accommodated on every standardized test through her first SAT, although she finally insisted on taking it without accommodation the second time. I have never been clear on what her disability is -- she was one of the top two or three kids in her class at a very competitive private school year after year, got 2300+ on her unaccommodated SAT, and was accepted ED at an ultraselective college -- but her (very anxious) parents were fully armed with diagnoses and OT reports. Ultimately, it was the kid who said "Enough!"; she was feeling some social pressure about it from her peers, who were understandably resentful. Anyway, this isn't my issue at all, but as much as I love her parents I always thought they were getting away with abuse in this, and the only excuse was their own out-of-control anxiety about their testing issues when they were in high school.)</p>

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<p>JHS, I simply don't agree that the SAT is the "best" way to "standardize" academic accomplishment. It is not academic accomplishment. It is something entirely different, & is not even academic aptitude, actually. As to the variation in quality of assignments, my point exactly. A really ace student may be able to go quite beyond that assignment, & if not (if prohibited therefrom), the ability of that student to do well in that school is not an effective measurement of his or her ability to do well in a top-tier U. I would want to see evidence of that student's academic initiative & ability to engage in content-based learning (which the SAT is NOT) through other means. If he/she is such a super student, the SAT, whatever the score, will not necessarily show that. However, summer programs, comm. college work, essay contests entered, etc., may show just how academically industrious that student is.</p>

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<p>From where I stand- documentation can show that someone "doesnt test well"</p>

<p>In reading, EK4s daughter, does not yet automatically recognize words by sight. To make matters more difficult, she is also very limited in her abilty to use phonic decoding. When she encounters a word she does not immediately recognize, she uses her verbal intelligence to figure out what the word must be based on contextual meaning and syntactical cues.Given her serious deficit in verbal short term working memory capacity, she is unable to "figure out" a word and at the same time, keep in mind the flow of the whole sentence she is reading. She has to re-read, often several times, to complete reading a whole sentence. She would not be able to do this and keep in mind the whole paragraph,passage or chapter.Despite all her effort she cannot avoid frequently missing or misreading details or inferential information........</p>

<p>This is someone who is able to take AP and honors classes- but has to work harder than someone without these disabilities- IMO if slight accomodations could be made, so that not so much extra effort would be required and she could more fully show her potential- this would only be a "good thing"</p>

<p>Her intelligence and abilty to show that intelligence has been described as 'Severely discrepant" by several educational psychologists.
Just because some people abuse the system, does not lessen her need, but does impact her ability to access it.</p>

<p>I understand the reasoning for a test, but for instance when my older daughter applied to colleges ( she also has learning disabilties), she was accepted to a very rigorous school, even though her grades and SAT scores were below their median. The reasoning was, that the school takes into account other factors than numbers. Makes sense, they are small enough, that they can take their time processing apps, and they are expensive enough that they can cover the extra costs.</p>

<p>However- I am hearing from the fairly recent president of the school, that SAT scores are a valid and valued way of measurement, and are not going to be discarded, and it even sounds that they are now going to be weighted more heavily than when my daughter applied ( she graduated this past spring with a degree in biology), which I feel will change the student body and the education recieved, to their detriment.</p>

<p>you thought you were going to be able to confuse me with Steve Koblik?</p>

<p>( Since an admission rep is going to be at D2s high school today- I am tempted to grill her on the change in the party line- but since she is also one of D1s friends, I am going to have to go easy ;) )</p>

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<p>Epiphany and EK4, while I don't think that standardized testing ought to be considered as the sole, "best" way to evaluate students, I am still in the camp of those who think that the SAT is valid and will remain "a valued way of measurement" even if the "A" in "SAT" does not stand for aptitude any longer. On that score, I am not surprised to hear that the SAT is still considered to be an important factor in admissions. </p>

<p>As it stands now, going SAT optional is a trend but not a groundswell (and I am sure that the CB and Kaplan people are certainly hoping that it stays that way.)</p>

<p>"Fair Test, a Cambridge, Mass., group critical of standardized testing, says about 730 campuses make exams optional for all or a substantial share of their students, up from 280 schools about a decade ago.</p>

<p>"But the vast majority of students still are liable to apply to a school where tests are required, said Brandon Jones, national director of SAT and ACT programs for Kaplan Test Prep and Admissions, which offers admission consulting and test preparation services.</p>

<p>His firm's survey of the 300 most selective institutions in the nation found that 95 percent required the exams and were not considering a change.</p>

<p>"Obviously, every college has the right to determine its own admissions criteria," said Brian O'Reilly, executive director of SAT information services with the College Board.</p>

<p>He said tests are a very strong predictor of performance, and he wondered why schools would exclude any data about an applicant. He said part of the motivation could be an enrollment edge, because schools "are almost guaranteed to increase their applications." "</p>

<p><a href="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06280/728119-298.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06280/728119-298.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>katonahmom,
I think your last sentence is an important one, & fair to bring up. However, regarding the SAT as measurement, as validity, etc., this is why these schools are called SAT-<em>optional</em>. Places like Connecticut College, Dickinson (I think), & others we have looked into allow the student to report that score if he/she thinks it will enhance their profile. Nothing wrong with that. I definitely support that. Let the college make its own choice. I am not for deciding for colleges what they should & should not <em>consider</em>, only for arguing to them what the SAT I (esp.) may or may not measure. Big difference. To exclude a student from consideration because of a score on a standardized test -- regardless of achievement across many areas, academically & artistically -- makes no sense ACCORDING TO THE VERY STATEMENTS PUBLISHED BY MANY OF THESE SAME SELECTIVE COLLEGES. That's all I'm saying. They speak out of both sides of their mouths.</p>

<p>"He said tests are a very strong predictor of performance.." Well of course he'd say that; he has a vested interest in saying so; he is not an objective authority on that issue. Period. And, I repeat, CB does not agree with him. He also (as referenced) misunderstands that SAT-optional is not SAT "exclusion," as he implies.</p>

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<p>epiphany, we certainly do agree that the SAT is not a perfect measure or predictor of success in college by any means and must be balanced off by other rigorous indications of achievement in a student's profile. But for the time being, especially since SAT optional does imply simply that - optional, I don't forsee that standardized testing will disappear from the college admissions panorama. EK4's hint that the morphed SAT is gaining weight is significant and well, is an intriguing reality check that although colleges declare that they do not miss it, standardized testing is, at least for quite a while, not going away.</p>

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<p>20 years ago I was an Alumni Interviewer for my small LAC. The admissions office told us that they had done a longtitudinal study on their students, comparing SAT scores and HS GPA's with final college GPA's. There was virtually NO correlation with the SAT scores, but a high correlation with HS GPA. But the college wouldn't get rid of SAT, for fear of appearing less selective. </p>

<p>I don't buy the arguments about trying to compare GPA's between HS. No college worth its salt takes the GPA as a HS gives it to them. They all look at the TRANSCRIPT, with ALL of the grades (be they letters or percentages) and calculate the GPA in their own way, so that it's consistant for all applicants to their school. Doesn't solve the possible "grade inflation" problem, but eliminates the weighted/unweighted dilemna.</p>

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<p>epiphany,
Thank you! I couldn't have said it better! There should be more use of actual interviews/meetings with prospective students especially at the larger colleges/universities instead of relying heavily on grades/test scores. It's important for the schools to actually try to get to know the personality of the students that they're considering for admission - their integrity, morals, passions, etc. An applicant could have a stellar academic record but not actually have good moral values, etc., so someone shouldn't just be judged based on those elements.</p>

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<p>It's not just a problem evaluating the difference between a GPA from an urban school vs. an elite private. </p>

<p>In my area, some of the less brilliant private school kids are coddled, prodded, tutored, and counseled so as never to get a C. They would crash and burn in the local upper-end public. It's not the 4.0 I'm suspicious of in the local private schools--those kids are super! It's the 3.1 that I would worry about if I were an admissions counselor.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>Interviews: With a school that gets 20,000 applications, interviewing the applicants probably would take a minimum of 10-15,000 person-hours. You might be able to have 25 people do them all, as long as they had absolutely nothing else to do during the five critical months, but they would have a high, high burnout rate (that's 160 interviews/month/interviewer, in which the interviewer would meet about 20 kids who would actually be accepted). More likely, there would need to be 100+ interviewers. Inter-rater reliability would be miniscule. And we're still only talking about relatively superficial interviews. I don't think interviews would actually work well for HYPS.</p></li>
<li><p>I don't think anyone questions that high school record is more important than SAT scores, but it just isn't possible to maintain an accurate idea of the differences among high schools and their grading practices. Standardized tests help with the school-to-school comparison. (I suspect that 25+ years ago, when "Laf" was generating the data for its longitudinal study, it was taking kids from many fewer schools than selective research universities do now, so this problem was not addressed by its data.)</p></li>
<li><p>My kids are familiar with a small set of students (including them) who have moved from an elite private school to a demanding large public school. Kids in the top quarter of their class (roughly) at the private school were top 1-2% kids at the public school; "mediocre" kids at the private school were top 1-10% kids at the public school.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>JHS, The experience you cite in paragraph 3 happens to coincide with our experience, too. Or, to put it another way, the 3.75 -3.8's at our most rigorous, most high-rent public, would be B- students at our elite private. Further, the 4.++++ students I know from those & similar publics are, to their surprise, overwhelmed at truly rigorous colleges (i.e., obviously those who made it into top U's -- though not HYP); they are having difficulty keeping up with the intellectual standard & have abandoned their previous outside activities in an effort to make a 3.0 as freshmen. The standards at our best publics are not the standards at our secular privates.</p>

<p>As to another poster's comment about private school students being "coddled," it is not my experience that at such a school my daughters attend, there is coddling to the extent of grade forgiveness/alteration. However, because the coursework is so demanding -- in fact, in many cases truly college level -- the smaller size of that school offers teachers assistance opportunities. By assistance I mean further explanation, etc. -- not something suspicious. GPA's at this school, unlike at our high-rent publics, are not top-heavy. They are all over the scattergrams. However, the "average" student at this school is not a C student at even the best public. (More like an A- student at the best public).</p>

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<p>In my post, I was referring to a small subset of kids, who at private or public schools, do not "own" their grades. They get their B's due to parental pushing, endless tutoring, and micromanagement. </p>

<p>I agree that the same kid with the same level of assistance is going to look better in a public school--the privates are (mostly) more rigorous. It's when that assistance is removed, whether by changing schools or other causes, that the real student is revealed. I have seen some of these students in my community last a very short time in college, because the support system is gone. </p>

<p>My point is that at SOME (and generally less rigorus) private schools, the "C" is avoided at all costs. Thus, a lot of kids with 3-point-whatever averages are hard to distinguish between the good student and the hand-held one.</p>

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<p>I should also mention that I'm well aware that there are public h.s. grads now at Ivies, Chicago, CalTech, & MIT, who are doing quite well, thank you, & are not struggling to keep up more than private school peers are. But I do think it can be harder, depending on that public h.s., to distinguish oneself intellectually, including when it comes to college admission. (And easier to "get by" if one does not challenge oneself.) Many of us private school parents struggle with the stress level for our S's and D's. However, I guess I console myself with the knowledge that they are getting outstanding preparation for college, & I will have less worries about academic transitions. I admit I feel divided about it,.</p>

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<p>In our area, our public school systems are just as good if not better than our more costly private schools, and the educational results are similar in that our higher-achieving students are admitted to prestigious colleges/universities and are succeeding at the same level as they did in high school. Since our school systems are at such a high level to begin with, the success/achievement rate is high. There are students in the private schools either because the parents think that their children need it because of learning issues (and that's legit), or snob/status/elitist appeal (because they have a mind-set that it's better than our public schools and they can say that their child attends such and such private school).</p>

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<p>Whether public or private school students are better prepared or not is tangential to the point about the usefulness of the SAT. Private school students may indeed be better prepared than the overwhelming majority of public school students. Their GPA will not reflect that greater level of preparation, but perhaps their SAT scores will enable adcoms to put those scores into context.</p>