Inside Higher Ed: "The University of China at Illinois"

Parents Forum
101

BTW, not all applicants are the same quality.

It seems that even if you have 2 students who are full-pay, UIUC prefers the International who’s higher quality over the OOS American who is lower quality.

The comparison with Purdue is instructive. It seems that the IL engineering students who PU draw fall in to 2 categories:

  1. Kids who can get in to UIUC Engineering but are enticed to PU by merit scholarships.
  2. Kids who can not get in to UIUC Engineering.

UIUC then fills those slots with full-pay Internanationals who are UIUC-quality.

Likewise, a poster on here noted that the Chicagoland kids he sees who head to IU fall in to 2 categories:

  1. Those drawn to Kelley (admittedly a good b-school).
  2. Kids who could not get in to UIUC.

Also likewise, UIowa (and now Mizzou) have long filled the role for IL kids that MSU fills in MI (as a DivI RU that’s below the top flagship).

I don’t think you’re suggesting that UIUC should start rejecting higher-quality Internationals for lower-quality OOS Americans who can’t get in to their flagship, are you?

102

“This isn’t a question of reaching Michigan’s level, UIUC simply lags behind almost all of the other Big 10 schools for OOS students. I’m sure several factors play a role, but UIUC still lags (with the exception of Rutgers…which floats around 5 yo 8% OOS)”

Isn’t that also just due to the fact that there are way more people in IL to “fill” UIUC than any of the neighboring states?

103

Why does the OOS % matter? From the report:

From 2000 to 2013 (using Census data) the state population has grown by slightly less than 1% (12.4 million to 12.8), while the % of under 18 year old has gone from 26.1% to 23.5%. Typical trends for a Midwestern state.

While International students can bring in more Tuition, OOS students have other advantages (as well as increased tuition revenue).

Sure, though some other Big 10 states (Pennsylvania and Ohio) have similar populations but much higher OOS %. Another recent trend has been the drop in in-state student yield (likely due to higher tuition/fee cost).

As per that report, it’s the University of Illinois (system) that feels a low % of OOS is an issue. One without an easy fix.

Is that the case? if an OOS from California has a 1400, and an international has a 1420, will they pick the International? Or do they keep the two pools separate, having a targeted % for both, while keeping the admissions requirements high for each pool? We know they do take geographic location into consideration. I’m sure UIUC wants to keep the level of student quality high, but i would think revenue generation is the prime force behind the increase in international students.

104

@Gator88NE, if anything, it’s harder for Internationals than OOS Americans to get in to UIUC. The admit rate for Internationals is definitely far lower than it is for OOS Americans in to UIUC (77% of OOS and 46% of Internationals were admitted in 2012; I believe the admit rate for Internationals is 30-something now). UIUC can’t really take more OOS without compromising the quality of its student body now (which goes back to my point that unlike UMich/Cal/UCLA/UVa, UIUC doesn’t have a big ready-made pool of qualified OOS students who can step in and enroll right now): http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-12-02/news/ct-met-u-of-i-enrollment-20121202_1_international-students-illinois-residents-illinois-students

Revenue generation is a prime motivator to take OOS, but a full-pay OOS American will pay about as much as a full-pay International. In that case, why shouldn’t UIUC take the higher quality applicant?

Furthermore, OSU’s OOS American and International numbers added together are similar to UofI’s OOS American and International numbers added together.

Yet OSU has Columbus, is a football powerhouse, and is closer to the Northeast, where kids are more likely to spend money to go OOS while UofI is great in engineering & CS. Add it all together, and it seems that OSU is getting more of those kids who want to go to a football school while UofI is more attractive to internationals. I’m not sure it would be possible for UofI to adopt OSU’s model while being located in the middle of cornfields farther from the Northeast and with no football powerhouse even if they wanted to.

PSU also has the advantages of being a football powerhouse and being located in the Northeast + the advantage of having a campus that numerous people have described as stunning (a description that few seem to apply to Chambana). It’s also significantly bigger than UofI (even just the State College campus) so has more slots to fill.

Furthermore, both OH and PA have publics that in-state kids may want to go to besides the flagship for various reasons, so the flagship needs to draw more from OOS. PA has another full-blown RU in UPitt that would be a flagship in some other states. OH has a bunch of publics that are strong in various areas (MiamiU in business, UCincy in design, Akron in polymer engineering, etc.). There’s really nothing like that in IL (which, again, is why UIowa/ISU/Mizzou/IU/PU serve as IL’s equivalent of MSU).

Both OSU and PSU are also cheaper for OOS, which means that they get less money for each student than UIUC does right now.

105

YZamyatin,

UIUC would love to have more OOS students if they can help it. They have a hard time getting enough qualified OOS and despite admitting them at much higher rate, they still can’t get many. The internationals at UIUC have already been admitted at significantly lower rates and yet, more and more applied; they don’t just bring the money; they are also highly qualified; UIUC has a much stronger brand name overseas. Would you really turn them down just so some significantly less qualified OOS students could get into UIUC? Also, regarding giving back; that’s a silly point to me. The alumni giving rates have been around only 5-15% for many state universities; these are the rates for domestic students and yet, you are worrying about internationals not giving back? You are exaggerating the difference in terms of their behavior. The truth is MOST don’t give back, domestic or not! As a former international student who do give back to my alma mater, I find your assumption quite offensive.

106

As for the theory that drawing OOS students would help with population and economic growth, note that even though UMich almost certainly draws the most high-quality OOS students of any Midwestern public, MI and Metro Detroit have done the worst of any Midwestern state or metro area.

107

^ Just to clarify, Ann Arbor has done extremely well for itself. UMich is in Ann Arbor, not Detroit.

For Michigan, grads would stay if the state laws weren’t hostile to young people who want to settle and start a family. It’s not the fault of the universities. People would stay if the state invested in public transportation, better schools, etc. Until that happens, people don’t want to live and raise families here- and they will move to find places that meet their criteria.

108

“Furthermore, both OH and PA have publics that in-state kids may want to go to besides the flagship for various reasons, so the flagship needs to draw more from OOS. PA has another full-blown RU in UPitt that would be a flagship in some other states. OH has a bunch of publics that are strong in various areas (MiamiU in business, UCincy in design, Akron in polymer engineering, etc.). There’s really nothing like that in IL (which, again, is why UIowa/ISU/Mizzou/IU/PU serve as IL’s equivalent of MSU).”

This is an excellent analysis. I might add KU to a lesser extent to the last line.

109

Linked article takes a guess at B1G alumni populations in various major cities around B1G campuses. Even if IL residents are leaving IL to go to other B1G flagships, many are still returning to Chicago to live and work.

http://www.landgrantholyland.com/2014/5/7/5690888/where-do-big-ten-graduates-live-could-columbus-host-a-b1g-tournament

Also, interesting map of D1 football fans by county in the US. Lots of ND and Michigan fans in Chicago. I think every B1G alumni group has a designated sports bar in Chicago area to watch games together.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/03/upshot/ncaa-football-fan-map.html

110

As a parent with kids living in a well-funded suburban Chicago school district, we have paid some interest to UIUC’s enrollment situation. From talking to other parents whose kids have gone through the admissions process, there are a number of strikes against UIUC before considering the issues of foreign students.

1 – Tuition Cost – UIUC bifurcates their tuition, charging an additional $5,000 for STEM and business majors. The education/communication majors pay about $15K per year, while STEM and business majors pay around $20K in tuition. This makes UIUC’s tuition the most expensive in-state tuition in the Big 10.

2 – College Experience – U of I is known for having the least appealing campus/college experience of any of the neighboring Big 10 schools. UW-Madison, IU-Bloomington and Iowa beat UIUC hands down in this respect.

3 – Scholarships – UIUC gives little in the way of merit aid. In contrast, most nearby public and private universities will match UIUC’s inflated in-state tuition to attract Illinois kids that fit in the upper half of their ACT/SAT range. Iowa, Marquette and DePaul are well known for this practice.

4 – UIUC requires incoming students to apply and be accepted directly to their school of choice as part of the admissions process, so some kids get accepted to the university, but not their preferred major. Many of these kids end up at other schools that either don’t have this requirement or they get directly into their major. This is one of the reasons the UIUC yield rate is so low.

5 – Alumni Support/Network – UIUC has by far the most graduates working in Chicago, but the alumni network is pathetic and alumni support is weak. The UIUC alumni I have dealt with are almost apologetic about the school they graduated from, and there is little career support of recent graduates. I have known a UIUC fund raiser for many years, and he said getting alumni to donate was like getting blood from a turnip. In contract, schools like Michigan and Notre Dame have much more outspoken alumni base and a better alumni network in Chicago.

As a result of these issues, UIUC is not very high of many students list of schools to attend. However, it is the most popular four year college at our high school, beating out IU-Bloomington, Iowa and DePaul in that order.

The issue with so many foreign students has inflamed local parents and cut support of the school. UIUC was not popular to begin with, and these practices of enrolling foreign students at the expense of the sons and daughters of Illinois tax payers has eroded much of the schools goodwill. When the new governor and the legislature move to further cut funding, there will be little public support for the school.

111

The cost of educating international students at many US colleges…especially public ones may end up being a wash for the following factors:

  1. Many have policies internationals must pay full tuition and show they're able to do so for four or more years through funds in a US based escrow account. In fact, this is one key reason why there's an emphasis on increasing enrolling them. OOS tuition which the international students' families will have to be full-pay for.
  2. They're unlikely to find college career guidance offices very helpful/useful unless they attend colleges with strong overseas alumni links or pedigree recognition. Especially considering most US college career guidance offices are geared for US students seeking jobs in the US, something most international students won't be eligible for as their student visas will only allow them to study in the US or work campus jobs and expires upon termination of their studies or graduation.
  3. Considering their prior educational preparation, it's likely any remedial education will be confined to English language/writing. And that issue seems to be less of an issue compared with a decade or more ago due to the wider access to English language media and better language courses taught overseas, including Mainland China.

Only exception to the latter is if the given student is an extreme outlier in the academic laggard category or attended K-12 in a real isolated backwater region where English language courses aren’t present/taught poorly. In any event, such students aren’t likely to be from families wealthy enough to afford tp or be willing to send them off to US colleges unless they’re eligible to attend the few elite colleges which provide FA to international students or earmarked scholarships like ones the overseas branch of the Fu Foundation provides to students from Sinosphere societies who are admitted and enroll at the Fu Foundation Columbia SEAS.

  1. They're ineligible for FA, scholarships, or work-study funds which are meant for domestic students in the US.
112

@Zinhead, well UMich and ND are also, overall, on a higher tier than UIUC, so a stronger alumni network isn’t really surprising. Plus, yes, they cultivate their alums (and are football powerhouses). As an aside, with state support of UMich amounting to a single-digit percentage of their budget, UMich in many ways behaves like a private now and was one of the first publics that looked to seriously grow their endowment through fundraising.

BTW, evidently, UIUC offers just as many in-state kids as they always have (and the undergraduate student body at UIUC has grown), so technically, they’ll not cutting opportunity to IL kids to enroll more Internationals. In-staters are turning UIUC down in greater numbers, however.

I find the contrasting in-state attitude to PSU and UIUC to be very interesting. Both are relatively high cost to in-staters and offer little merit money. UIUC has more high-ranked programs. However, PSU have more kids who love it and a stronger alumni base. Evidently, having a football powerhouse and picturesque campus does wonders. Also, PA cut spending to PSU long ago, so PSU has had to start acting more like a (gigantic) private and curry favor with alums & prospies decades ago, while UIUC is undergoing state budget cuts now.

Ironically, cutting state funding to UIUC may make the school appear more attractive, as UIUC would have to spend more on marketing and making the college experience more enjoyable (and harder to get in to).

BTW, some would say that UIUC’s direct admit in to majors is a positive, not a drawback. For instance, most students in Kelley aren’t admitted straight out of HS. Instead, you have to apply after first enrolling at IU. Yet one B- is enough to sink your chances at getting in to Kelley. Do you prefer that type of pressure? What do you do if you want to go to undergrad b-school, are at IU, but failed to get in to Kelley?

Finally, yes, it certainly looks like UIUC does not like to deny in-state kids, preferring to allow them to decide whether to take a 2nd-choice major at UIUC or go elsewhere, leading to a low yield and high acceptance rate. Would you prefer that UIUC start to play the acceptance rate game? They could easily increase apps by joining the Common App and straight-out denying in-state kids to protect their yield. I’m not sure why you think that would be beneficial to IL kids, though.

113

“You mean to say that the FA students’ out-of-class time is more likely (for example) to be spent working the concession to earn money at the football game rather than paying to watch the football game?”

Right. Which can be a good experience, but doesn’t create the same warm and fuzzy memories.

“U of I is known for having the least appealing campus/college experience of any of the neighboring Big 10 schools. UW-Madison, IU-Bloomington and Iowa beat UIUC hands down in this respect.”

Right. What they needed to do 50 or 20 years ago was invest in the town. There’s so much more charm in AA, Madison, Bloomington, etc., not to mention Lawrence, KS, etc. I find U-C so bleak. It’s better than it used to be, but a complete joke compared to the great Big 10 college towns. All those hip cafes, poster stores, record shops, vintage stores, ethnic restaurants…why not in U-C? The Greek scene is huge by default; there aren’t great alternatives.

I recommend that a lot of my Chicago students who want to do liberal arts look at Minnesota or Ohio State for roughly the same price as in-state at UIUC. If you’re not doing engineering or CS, why not be in a big city?

114

@Hanna: . . . or accounting.

I certainly can see the advantages of a city or the charm of Madtown/AA, but I’m not sure just how much UofI can do with Chambana. The UofC has tried to spruce up Hyde Park and maybe Yale has tried to spruce up New Haven, but they’re still Hyde Park and New Haven.
Columbia had to wait for Morningside Heights to recover by itself. Ditto with USC and LA. Unless you want a university to be a major player in the local real estate market (and I’m not even sure how much leeway public universities have in that area), I don’t know what more UofI could have done.

115

@Hanna Thanks for the positive vibe for UIUC.

When was the last time you were actually on campus? Should that investment be in downtown Champaign or downtown Urbana? You realize Green Street/Campustown is not the downtown of either city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campustown_%28Champaign,_Illinois%29

Recent UIUC views from drones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXbFu91a0t4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zRbs7z_3OI

116

Columbia U was far from passive in that regard.

To a lesser extent than NYU, Columbia has been on a real estate buying binge around the Morningside Heights area and around their Medical Campus in Washington Heights.

117

“When was the last time you were actually on campus?”

Very recently. Great a cappella scene there.

“Thanks for the positive vibe for UIUC.”

Which schools in the old Big 10 do you think it outshines in terms of campus life and college town? I’ll give you Purdue.

118

“I find U-C so bleak. It’s better than it used to be, but a complete joke compared to the great Big 10 college towns.”
Did you call an entire BIG campus “a complete joke”, or was it campustown, downtown Champaign, or downtown Urbana?

As a trusted college placement advisor, if your clients end up attending UIUC, do you refund your fee as you were unable to persuade them from making the biggest mistake of their lives? Why even visit to judge acapella?

“All those hip cafes, poster stores, record shops, vintage stores, ethnic restaurants…why not in U-C?”
None of these exist in the UIUC area?

Which B1G campus has a “poster store” that is a destination all to itself?

119

Isn’t that the typical (vicious cycle) story of state universities?

Funding cuts from the state → state university raises tuition and/or recruits more out-of-state and international students to replace the cut funds → loss of public support for the state university → funding cuts from the state → …

Of course, some will say that the state universities should cut their wasteful spending. But then if they went completely no-frills (no dorms, no food service, no assistance finding off-campus housing, no gyms, no on-campus medical clinic, no sports (either intramural or intercollegiate), no advising or counseling, no assistance with student organizations, cutting back on smaller majors and courses, eliminating departments that cannot pay for themselves with research grants or teaching service, increasing class sizes, only the minimally required disability accommodations, etc.), would they lose public support by being no longer desirable to students expecting a nice “college experience” as opposed to something that feels worse than a four year community college, even if the remaining academic offerings are top-notch?

120

Well, when spending on the public flagship is cut enough, the school will start acting more like a private and not operate always in the best interest of in-state residents. For instance, UMich seems to engage in yield protection by deferring even in-state applicants with terrific stats & ECs now.

Ironically, such behavior may actually raise the prestige of the school and make it seem more desirable. . . .