http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=379 indicates that Michigan does consider “level of applicant’s interest”.
So basically over the years you have an influx of Chinese families getting rich from guanxi (government corruption), the housing market (it’s a bubble though so who knows what will happen), and China’s huge economy. There are lots of rich Chinese people who can afford US tuition. Plus since they’re trying to cleanse the country out of corruption, a lot of rich people are leaving China and seeking “refuge” in the US.
A year of university tuition in China is around 10,000 rmb which is around $1-2k. International student tuition in the US costs around $30k for publics, and $45k for privates, not to mention you have the added living costs so the total would be around $60k each year for international students.
These Chinese students have families that can afford to pay 60x the tuition price of the tuition they could be paying if they went to school in China. If you think about it, that’s how rich they are. And they’re saturating the public universities… starting from the UCs, to the UIs, to any institution that will accept their money.
Sure, the universities make money this way and are able to grant scholarships to other students. However, many of these Chinese students plan on going back to China after they graduate.
I don’t know if this is a problem or a benefit, but there will probably be a change since each year as more and more Chinese students apply to the universities and get accepted. The international student bodies increase rapidly over the years. With more and more of these Chinese students applying, who can afford to pay the full tuition, would that affect the admissions rate and competition for domestic US students? Not to mention, a lot of these international students can afford to study in the US during high school at private boarding schools, so they can also slip into the domestic student body.
@orangebanana, note that the HS population is flat or declining (or will decline soon) in many states. Particularly those states that are abundant in elite privates and publics desirable to Internationals, in fact. With almost all states cutting back their funding for their publics, the recent wave of Chinese students has been a godsend to them. If not for that wave, the situation (fiscal and otherwise) at those publics would look much uglier right now.
As a sidenote, up until the very late '90s, university education in Mainland China was free for all domestic Chinese students who scored high enough on the national college entrance exam to qualify for a given college. This was still in effect when I did my study-abroad there back then. Tuition fees were implemented not too long after my time there.
@PurpleTitan , Yeah I know that thanks to their tuition universities can support other students. But if they keep on accepting more, will that affect the competition for other students? Is it good or bad?
Guanxi is not a synonym for ‘government corruption’. In the US the word is ‘networking’, who you know, where you come from, where you studied, who you schmooze with - same in China.
The housing market is not likely to be a huge bubble, at least outside a couple of the biggest cities. Most of the increases are part of an overall revaluation towards more global levels for prices (and incomes).
Most of the Chinese families with a child studying the US are not ‘rich’ - the 4 years study could be 10 years household income for them. The level of financial sacrifice is beyond what would be considered normal, these days, in the US.
I mean that most Chinese families who can afford to send their kin to study in the US are rich relative to other Chinese families. Some of these families also were able to afford to send their kin to international feeder schools, the SAT/TOEFL test preparation academies, and college counseling.
I went to high school in China with many students like this and currently go to a university filled with rich fuerdai Chinese students.
I had to look this word up…fuerdai = “the second generation of the rich”
You guys are making me work 
Is the answer to the question “money”?
Why take US students with loans or scholarships when you can take foreign students on full pay?
I think that’s the unanswered question underlying the entire article, @orangebanana.
Yes. 
@PurpleTitan - “well UMich and ND are also, overall, on a higher tier than UIUC, so a stronger alumni network isn’t really surprising.”
My post was in reference to networking in Chicago. Since UIUC is the flagship school of Illinois, it was somewhat surprising to see them out-networked by schools in Michigan and Indiana who have a fraction of the number of alums in the Chicago area. Michigan State seems to have a more of an alumni presence in Chicago, and MSU does not out tier UIUC.
“BTW, evidently, UIUC offers just as many in-state kids as they always have (and the undergraduate student body at UIUC has grown), so technically, they’ll not cutting opportunity to IL kids to enroll more Internationals. In-staters are turning UIUC down in greater numbers, however.”
Tell that to the parents of UIUC applicants wait listed or turned down. They are livid that 1,200 of the 6,900 freshman slots are held for foreigners, while their kids can’t make it in.
“BTW, some would say that UIUC’s direct admit in to majors is a positive, not a drawback. For instance, most students in Kelley aren’t admitted straight out of HS. Instead, you have to apply after first enrolling at IU. Yet one B- is enough to sink your chances at getting in to Kelley. Do you prefer that type of pressure? What do you do if you want to go to undergrad b-school, are at IU, but failed to get in to Kelley?”
I prefer the system in place at my alma mater. After taking the required pre-requisite classes, students applied to their colleges after their second full year. It allowed undecided students to sample a variety of classes before declaring a major, and allowed students to opportunity to change their focus of study rather easily if their preconceived majors did not appeal to them. In contrast, the UIUC system slots everyone in hard silos from start, making it harder for students whose interests change or did not start out with a strong conviction of what to study.
Was entering the desired major (assuming prerequisites are passed) a formality, or did some or all majors have a GPA requirement (higher than 2.0 or whatever keeps one in good academic standing) or a competitive admission process? If the latter, then there is the possibility that a student starting at the school cannot complete his/her desired major at that school.
However, if all majors are open with no such GPA requirements or competitive admissions, that means that each has excess capacity that it can use to educate more students. One might think that reserving unused capacity is “wasteful”, particularly in the context of a tax-supported public school.
@Zinhead: Maybe those parents should be told that even back in the old days, their kid wouldn’t have gotten in. Less Internationals, but more In-state kids accepting.
If you look at the results threads, UIUC, outside of CS (and maybe engineering and business, though even for those, you don’t need great stats) just isn’t that hard to get in to. 60%+ acceptance rate for in-state kids.
Finally, other than in to engineering, CS in engineering, and business, switching majors at UIUC isn’t difficult. And if you want to be undecided, you can apply to DGS to start out.
And sure, you’d prefer the system of your alma mater if you could get in to your intended major. But what if you fail to? Like I said, many kids enroll at IU intending to attend Kelley, but a certain percentage fail to. So then you have to choose a major you do not want or transfer. You prefer that system over one where you are accepted or rejected in to a major (and can thus make other plans) before you start at a college?
@ucbalumnis - As I recall, all majors had a relatively low minimum for entrance. If the student could not maintain that level, they would not graduate with a four year degree. Some schools, like business and STEM, had higher minimum requirements, but they were not draconian nor that difficult to maintain.
@PurpleTitan - The UIUC overall acceptance rate is misleading. STEM, CS and Business are the colleges worth attending at UIUC, and their acceptance rate is somewhat lower than that of the overall school.
@Zinhead, fair enough, though if you look at the results thread, you’ll see that all except CS in Engineering aren’t extremely hard to enter.
Also, there are many majors that you can declare for if you meet certain requirements (that aren’t too difficult to meet, including some STEM majors): http://www.dgs.illinois.edu/declaring-your-major
These days, placement in to CS and business majors are in demand by students at any school that is known for those subjects.
So how would you prefer that UIUC deal with a situation where they have enough faculty and TA’s to take in roughly 250-300 CS majors per class but have 3000+ kids applying for them?
Would you prefer that they adopt UDub’s system? UDub admits only a handful of kids directly in to CS from HS. The rest have to apply after freshmen year. Roughly 1/3rd of those kids get in to CS. So what do you do if you are in the 2/3rds who don’t get in? Wouldn’t you rather know whether you got in to a highly selective major or not in HS, when you could choose another college without transferring?
I’m sorry, but when I read that headline all I could think of was the AdultSwim cartoon series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRT3UZl6muQ
UF has a system similar to the system described by Zinhead. I much prefer it, but it does have some negatives (tinstaafl; there is no such thing as a free lunch).
It starts with freshmen admissions. UF uses holistic admissions (only 50% of admissions is based on GPA, class rigor and test scores), and admission is made to the University, not the college (like Engineering or Business). Your chosen major plays no role in admissions. If you plan on being an engineering major, UF will not put extra weight on your SAT math scores. In fact, UF doesn’t consider SAT subject test scores for admission. So, even though UF is selective, it does tend to bring in students that do well in many areas vs. excelling in a few key areas.
As an incoming freshman, you can pick a major and, for example, be a first year engineering or arts major, or you can chose to be undecided. UF advocates that students spend the first year or two exploring different majors before finalizing on a program. During orientation (and advising), we’re told it’s expected that the majority of students will switch majors at least once, in the first two years and that it’s OK.
When you finally choose a major, you do have to meet basic GPA and prerequisites requirements. Some majors are more competitive than others, but only a very few are “limited access” or have particularly high GPA requirements.
Sounds good, but what’s the downside (or how can UF pull this off)?
First, this does add time to graduation. UF’s four year graduation rates is 65% (2007 cohort, it’s 59% for the 2005 cohort), while its six year rate is much better at 87%. For comparison, UF’s 4 year graduation rate is a few % points less than UIUC (68%, 66% for the 2005 cohort)), but it’s 6 year graduation rate is a few points higher (UIUC’s is 84%).
Freshmen intro classes can be very large and rigorous. We may have 25% of the incoming class thinking they will be engineering majors, but that number will drop in half by the time they are juniors. After Calc 2, that liberal arts degree looks a lot more appealing!
Finally, we have to include transfer students as supporting transfers from the local state CC’s is a key mission for UF (and all 12 of the Florida public universities). UF enrolls over 3K transfer students each year (compare to 6.4K freshman), so they make up a significant % of the undergraduate population. Transfer students are used to “even out” enrollment across all of UF’s programs. They will find admissions much more competitive in those majors that are most in demand by freshman students. While a freshman may need a 3.0 GPA to get into the Finance major, a transfer student could find it nearly impossible.
I think UF’s method can be very labor intensive for the University, it’s not the easy path. UF has to arrange its resources to support its students’ preferences and needs. In fact, UF had to put in place a new internal funding process that is based on student FTE’s (as well as several other factors, including performance).
Excellent excellent posts @PurpleTitan . I am on a phone and unfortunately will have trouble referencing specific comments. Apologies if I mis-paraphrase…
- ‘accepting just as many in state as before’
This is the party-line that the school uses and is a bit misleading.
Q: What do you call a CS applicant who is accepted to DGS?
A: Rejected (there were over 2,000 CS applicants rejected last year, but most of them show up in the stats as ‘accepted’)
The school accepts thousands of in state applicants into DGS and these students go into the admissions statistics as accepted (what percent target BUS and ENG has to be guessed) when all many of them are really getting is a chance to compete in the hunger-games-like free for all for very limited sophomore year transfer slots in the most selective majors (engineering and business Colleges do not hold open capacity for these students).
Many kids who figure this out ahead of time wisely head to Kelley and Purdue, thereby hurting UIUC’s yield (clearly a self inflicted wound). The kids who don’t, find another interest or transfer (obviously not all these kids care about Business or Engineering, but you get my point). I would call it a clever strategy to dupe parents into believing that the school accepts just as many in state students as before, but I’m fairy certain they’re not that smart.
Speaking of DGS, it was created in 2007/2008 (and enrolled 22+% of students!), the same admission season that the international numbers started really taking off… Hmmm, maybe they are that smart.
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Agree completely that direct admit to major is ideal; it is a huge selling point for my son, and the UDub situation is just terrible (irresponsible even). Frankly though, I think UIUC’s use of DGS is not much better, although at least in Illinois’ case you have students interested in the less selective majors as well. I know why they do it though… the transfer students are reliably strong, not so all the HS stars. But it’s harsh on those that catch a B+ in a core prereq.
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I think you do a great job explaining why things are the way they are. Illinois is high pop state next to low pop states with cheaper options. They do not have a national rep like Mich or Virginia, etc.
I look at it from the other side. Why not focus on building the national rep?
Granted, I am not originally from here (IL) and maybe that’s why I don’t have the chip on my shoulder that so many of my friends and neighbors do about their kids not getting in, but I do think UIUC should play the game, if that’s what you call it.
Michigan high schools have absolutely nothing on Illinois’, which produce twice as many high stat grads (# of top 5% in nation ACT scorers just to pick a metric). I think UIUC should either build another flagship (ala the proposal out of Naperville to convert a directional into a 2nd big 10 in state public), or just let their neighbors fill that roll. They should concentrate on keeping as many top in state student at UIUC, and build the national rep to the point that OOS top students are attracted to more than just a handful of majors (yeah yeah easier said than done, I am just speaking in principal).
Of course they are doing the opposite by canceling the EA program, rejecting the proposal to adopt the Common App, having a practically non-existent national marketing campaign, and filling DGS with kids who they know will mostly, at least for the the most selective majors, not get in to their original 1st choice major… thereby making the school look much less selective than it actually is. Knowing that so many students will reject such an empty offer clobbers their yield, again, making the school look much less selective than it actually is.
Why the campaign to dress itself down so thoroughly? I’ll save it for another post, but anyone paying attention knows the school is hypersensitive to criticism from the in state population, especially after recent ‘clout list’ scandal. I think that UIUC should start acting more like the private U that, as you and others have pointed out, it is quickly becoming…
@ChaChaanTeng #104
I am not normally one to tell someone else what they should or should not be offended by, but since you made the accusation, and for the sake of my karma, I think that should you revisited my post #83 and take an honest look, you will find nothing to be really offended by.
Someone else mentioned the possibility that internationals are harder to raise money from, I agreed that it made intuitive sense but I hadn’t seen any research (does it not make intuitive sense that it is easier to raise money from your backyard than from halfway around the world? I mean, it might not be true, but is it so unlikely that it becomes offensive?). My post was reflective, with no presumptions whatsoever, and I stand by it.
One thing I noticed repeatedly in my recent searching is that giving is directly correlated to how ‘connected’ the campus experience was for a grad (apparently active fraternity and sorority members give at a higher rate, for example). Do you think the IHE article shows that these internationals aremore or less connected to the school than domestic students?
At least you’re consistent. On this thread, you see people bash UIUC for having a low yield, yet also bash UIUC for not taking in more sub-par in-state kids (and in-state kids have to meet a lower threshold to get in than Internationals). You see people bash UIUC for not offering more merit money, bash UIUC for taking in full-pay Internationals and say they’d support UIUC less if the state government cuts its budget, yet I don’t think they’d appreciate it if UofI netted less money by giving out more merit money and taking less Internationals but let their top programs slip by spending less money on them.
What IL really needs is UIC to be elevated to the level of MSU and UofI to try to catch up with UMich. Easier said than done, however.
BTW, I think that UIUC DGS is still a more “honest” option than what IU and UDub do, however. No one at UIUC says you have a good shot at business or CS in Engineering going through DGS (though there are a bunch of majors where you just have to reach a certain attainable GPA to enter from DGS, including some CS+X majors). In fact, they pretty much say you don’t since the mass bulk of those majors are filled out of HS. This is unlike CS@UDub or Kelley, where they fill the bulk of their class through internal transfers (which is a shrewd way to capture full-pay OOS, BTW, if less “honest”). This gives kids hope, but the reality is that a B- in a class at IU pretty much sinks any hopes for Kelley and only a third of internal transfers get in to CS at UDub (Ross and Haas operate the same way, in fact, you can’t enter Haas directly from HS, but at least UMich and Cal are pretty prestigious in their own right).